Cómic

Mi Buenos Aires querido

Dueño de un humor incorrecto, soez, escatológico y en ocasiones salvaje, Gustavo Sala acaba de publicar la que acaso sea su obra más significativa, «Buenos Aires en pelotas» (Sudamericana), un viaje tumultuoso por lo mejor y lo peor de la capital argentina: su frondosa oferta cultural, sus museos, teatros y cines, pero también sus calles intransitables y llenas de basura, atestadas de taxistas, colectiveros y peatones siempre apurados e iracundos; sus pizzerías y sus cafés notables así como la mugre, el ruido y el olor del Riachuelo. En esta charla con Liniers (el creador de «Macanudo» y uno de los humoristas gráficos argentinos de mayor proyección internacional), pasean por los antecedentes del retrato descarnado de la sociedad porteña, se preguntan cuál es el sexo y género de las grandes ciudades, cómo son las distintas maneras de pedir la cuenta en los bares del mundo y por qué en los bares tangueros ya no pasan tango. Y, de paso, discurren sobre la dificultad de dibujar ciudades y edificios, sobre el fetiche compartido de leer (y oler) libros impresos en un mundo crecientemente digital y sobre la complejidad de explicarle a cualquiera que no haya crecido en Argentina uno de sus mayores fenómenos políticos: el peronismo.

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En esta charla con Liniers (el creador de \u00abMacanudo\u00bb y uno de los humoristas gr\u00e1ficos argentinos de mayor proyecci\u00f3n internacional), pasean por los antecedentes del retrato descarnado de la sociedad porte\u00f1a, se preguntan cu\u00e1l es el sexo y g\u00e9nero de las grandes ciudades, c\u00f3mo son las distintas maneras de pedir la cuenta en los bares del mundo y por qu\u00e9 en los bares tangueros ya no pasan tango. Y, de paso, discurren sobre la dificultad de dibujar ciudades y edificios, sobre el fetiche compartido de leer (y oler) libros impresos en un mundo crecientemente digital y sobre la complejidad de explicarle a cualquiera que no haya crecido en Argentina uno de sus mayores fen\u00f3menos pol\u00edticos: el 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style=\\\"text-align: right;\\\"><span style=\\\"text-align: start;\\\">Liniers y Sala conversan por Zoom desde Vermont y Buenos Aires, respectivamente. Autorretrato hecho a cuatro manos por ambos 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style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/44905-ricardo-liniers\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">LINIERS<\/a><\/span>\u00a0y\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/177264-gustavo-sala\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">GUSTAVO 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Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Ricardo, \u00bfme est\u00e1s escuchando? \u00a1Estamos en vivo!<\/p><p><strong><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/comic\/145546-dis-tinta-9789500758598\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Liniers<\/a><\/span>:<\/strong>\u00a0Estamos en vivo y en directo, \u00a1ponele! La verdad es que yo ya no s\u00e9 si esto va grabado o en vivo, \u00a1ya estoy perdido con los zooms! Pero \u00bfqu\u00e9 vinimos a hacer hoy? \u00bfQui\u00e9n de los dos tiene libro nuevo?<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Bueno, yo seguro, probablemente vos tambi\u00e9n, pero \u00a1acabo de sacar mi primer libro con Random House! \u00a1\u00bfEntend\u00e9s, querido Ricardo Liniers?!<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Finalmente una corporaci\u00f3n, algo as\u00ed como con peso espec\u00edfico \u00a1en todo el planeta!<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Efectivamente, as\u00ed que es el momento de que me haga millonario y deje de comer de los contenedores, que justamente es una de las cosas que m\u00e1s aparecen en mi libro: los contenedores y gente comiendo de ellos, uno de los paisajes m\u00e1s habituales de los \u00faltimos a\u00f1os en Buenos Aires. Que de eso se trata un poco el libro.<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/comic\/261681-buenos-aires-en-pelotas-9789500765589\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Buenos Aires en pelotas<\/a><\/em><\/span>, digamos ya bien el t\u00edtulo, es el hermano menor de <em>Buenos Aires en camiseta<\/em>, o el hermano deforme. O el hermano zarpado. Siempre hay un hermano que est\u00e1 haciendo quilombo.<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Esa es la cita, por lo menos para el que entiende o sabe un poco de la tradici\u00f3n del humor gr\u00e1fico argentino, al Gran Cal\u00e9.\u00a0Ese emblema del humor costumbrista que retrataba a la sociedad porte\u00f1a, que fue\u00a0<em>Buenos Aires en camiseta<\/em>\u00a0y que a m\u00ed se me ocurri\u00f3 un poco citar, desde el lado m\u00e1s negro y podrido y actualizado, esta cosa del humor que mira a la ciudad.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Vos hace ya un rato largo que mir\u00e1s el mundo desde una lente muy interesante. Creo que sos el \u00fanico que tiene esa lente. \u00bfViste en\u00a0<em>Los Simpson<\/em>\u00a0que se ponen esos anteojos como de cervezas y ven a todo el mundo m\u00e1s lindo, las chicas son m\u00e1s lindas, etc\u00e9tera? Vos ten\u00e9s otros anteojos, que miran el mundo con otra visi\u00f3n\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Para nosotros los dibujantes el trabajo es muy est\u00e1tico, de estar muchas horas en el mismo lugar, sentados. Es muy dif\u00edcil dibujar en movimiento \u2014yo lo he intentado y salen dibujos mucho peores\u2014, entonces en mi caso, no s\u00e9 en el tuyo, me gusta ir a trabajar a bares, para salir de la quietud del estudio. S\u00e9 que muchos colegas nuestros van a bares para escribir, para inspirarse, para observar, y justamente la fauna del bar de\u00a0<a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/biografias\/1211-borges-buenos-aires-9789500763448\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\">Buenos Aires<\/span>\u00a0<\/a>te ofrece muchas ideas, muchos est\u00edmulos, y eso aparece en el libro. 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style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><strong><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/art-spiegelman-liniers\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Liniers:<\/a><\/strong><\/span>\u00a0Yo vivo en el medio del bosque, as\u00ed que la opci\u00f3n de bar ac\u00e1 es un poco deprimente. Es\u00a0casi como el bar de Moe, entonces prefiero quedarme en mi casa. Por ah\u00ed arranc\u00f3 el libro entonces, \u00bfc\u00f3mo empez\u00f3 la idea? \u00bfFue algo as\u00ed como: \u00abVoy a hacer un libro en el que sea Buenos Aires el epicentro y voy a analizar fauna, flora, cultura\u00bb? \u00bfArranc\u00f3 de que ibas a los bares y empezaste a mirar y a decir: \u00abUy, dibujo las tacitas, las expresiones de c\u00f3mo se pide el cafecito, traeme la cuenta y hac\u00e9s la firma en el aire\u2026\u00bb? Cuando ped\u00eds la cuenta, Sala, \u00bfhac\u00e9s la M larga o firm\u00e1s tu nombre en el aire? Yo hago mi nombre\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Esa es una de las preguntas que quer\u00eda hacerte a vos, que sos un argentino viviendo en otra parte del mundo. Cuando uno pide la cuenta haciendo la firma en el aire, \u00bfes un fen\u00f3meno argentino o ser\u00e1 mundial?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Yo lo hago ac\u00e1 en Estados Unidos y me traen la cuenta. Pero tambi\u00e9n ac\u00e1 te traen la cuenta cada diez minutos, es como que los tipos quieren todo el tiempo que la gente se vaya\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Hagas lo que 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style=\\\"text-align: right;\\\"><span style=\\\"text-align: start;\\\">Aqu\u00ed arriba, una de las inspiraciones esenciales de\u00a0<\/span><em>Buenos Aires en pelotas<\/em><span style=\\\"text-align: start;\\\">: el\u00a0cl\u00e1sico\u00a0<\/span><em>Buenos Aires en camiseta<\/em><span style=\\\"text-align: start;\\\">, del dibujante y humorista Cal\u00e9 (Alejandro del Prado), quien, proveniente de una ciudad del interior de la Argentina, observ\u00f3 con gracia y agudeza inusuales los usos y costumbres (y los padecimientos) de la gran urbe capitalina.\u00a0<\/span><em>Buenos Aires en camiseta<\/em><span style=\\\"text-align: start;\\\">\u00a0se public\u00f3 en la muy popular revista\u00a0<\/span><em>Rico Tipo<\/em><span style=\\\"text-align: start;\\\">\u00a0entre los a\u00f1os 1950\u00a0y 1963, a\u00f1o del temprano fallecimiento del autor. 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rioplatense<\/a><\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"\",\"typography_typography\":\"\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"10\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"30\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"bex40e4\",\"elType\":\"section\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_layout\":\"\",\"stretch_section\":\"\",\"layout\":\"boxed\",\"content_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"gap\":\"default\",\"height\":\"default\",\"custom_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":400},\"column_position\":\"middle\",\"content_position\":\"\",\"structure\":\"10\",\"section_background\":\"\",\"background_background\":\"\",\"background_color\":\"\",\"background_color_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":0},\"background_color_b\":\"\",\"background_color_b_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"background_gradient_type\":\"linear\",\"background_gradient_angle\":{\"unit\":\"deg\",\"size\":180},\"background_gradient_position\":\"center 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es que no s\u00e9 si hago as\u00ed (N de la R: Liniers mueve la mano en el aire) y sienten que los estoy saludando y por eso me traen la cuenta\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Bueno, son los introductores del concepto de la comida r\u00e1pida, que podr\u00edamos extenderlo a todo: cine r\u00e1pido, vida r\u00e1pida, descanso r\u00e1pido, todo r\u00e1pido\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Muerte r\u00e1pida y listo, ya est\u00e1. Nos sacamos de encima vivir lo antes posible\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Volviendo a tu pregunta, viste que hay un fen\u00f3meno del libro de cr\u00f3nica, de la primera persona que observa \u2014m\u00e1s que la propia historieta como tal\u2014 y justo la editorial me ofreci\u00f3 este formato,\u00a0una especie de libro mala onda sobre Buenos Aires desde el humor.\u00a0Hay muchos libros pensados para el turista, de fotos de San Telmo, de las tanguer\u00edas, gu\u00edas tur\u00edsticas, pero no encontr\u00e9 un libro as\u00ed. Obviamente est\u00e1 el libro de los barrios de Rep, el propio\u00a0<em>Buenos Aires en camiseta<\/em>, aquella joya de\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/libros-infantiles\/121782-dragon-9789500713382\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Scafati<\/a><\/span>\u00a0que era\u00a0<em>Mambo urbano<\/em>, \u00bfte acord\u00e1s?, que era su visi\u00f3n: creo que\u00a0el mendocino Scafati cuando llega a Buenos Aires se escandaliza con toda la podredumbre porte\u00f1a. Yo ten\u00eda ganas de ir m\u00e1s por ese lado, as\u00ed que coincide el pedido de la editorial y mi b\u00fasqueda, recorriendo la ciudad, aparte siendo marplatense, la ventaja de venir de afuera de Buenos Aires...<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Igual Mar del Plata tiene algo de megal\u00f3polis\u2026 no es tan gigantesca como Buenos Aires, pero hay bondis, hay gente con mala onda\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0S\u00ed, hay mala onda (tambi\u00e9n), pero no hay subte y hay un peque\u00f1o detalle que Buenos Aires no tiene, que es el mar\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0S\u00ed, con el mar sent\u00eds que hay una salida, que hay un escape\u2026 Me gusta que arranc\u00e1s por la historia de Buenos Aires.\u00a0Hay mucho an\u00e1lisis del Obelisco como el s\u00edmbolo f\u00e1lico de Buenos Aires; la pregunta que quiero hacerte es de qu\u00e9 sexo es Buenos Aires\u2026 Porque Santa Mar\u00eda de los Buenos Ayres no solo es femenina en sus inicios, sino que es femenina \u00a1y santa!\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0S\u00ed, pero viste que yo trato de mirar lo que menos me gusta de la ciudad. Buenos Aires son muchas situaciones a la vez y es una ciudad de contradicciones, porque, por un lado, ten\u00e9s este esp\u00edritu femenino en su origen y, por otro, esta cosa del Buenos Aires macho, del\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/arte-cine-y-musica\/144912-el-tango-9789500755801\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">var\u00f3n del tango<\/a><\/span>, del reo, de pol\u00e9mica en el bar, del tipo pesado. Y un poco el Obelisco podr\u00eda ser el s\u00edmbolo, la poronga porte\u00f1a que\u00a0\u00abcancherea\u00bb para el pa\u00eds y para el mundo, \u00bfno? Desafiante desde el machismo m\u00e1s rancio\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Es que si las ciudades tuviesen sexo,\u00a0si\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/literatura-contemporanea\/199732-paris-era-una-fiesta\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Par\u00eds<\/a><\/span>\u00a0fuese femenina o\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/literatura-contemporanea\/153076-una-casa-en-bogota-9789588894317\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Bogot\u00e1<\/a><\/span>\u00a0masculina, por ejemplo, cabe la posibilidad de que Buenos Aires fuese una ciudad que transicion\u00f3 de femenino a masculino en alg\u00fan momento.\u00a0Y es posible que la edificaci\u00f3n del Obelisco haya sido el momento: son los a\u00f1os treinta y empieza a aparecer el peronismo, la popularidad del\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/literatura-contemporanea\/164073-el-futbol-de-la-mano-9789877383706\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">f\u00fatbol<\/a><\/span>\u00a0y la vida en camiseta. Se la dejamos a los historiadores\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Pero viste que\u00a0el Obelisco no es lindo: como edificio, como monumento, es bastante pobre. Sin embargo, es como el \u00edcono porte\u00f1o: no hay hasta ahora otro monumento que lo supere como representante de la postal porte\u00f1a\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0No, totalmente. Como porte\u00f1o de nacimiento, cuando era chiquito para m\u00ed era un signo de interrogaci\u00f3n: \u00bfqu\u00e9 es eso? \u00bfPor qu\u00e9 hay algo blanco, alto, que apenas ten\u00eda unas ventanitas arriba\u2026?\u00a0 Pensabas: \u00bfhay alguien? Porque si tiene esas ventanitas es porque alguien tiene que estar ah\u00ed arriba metido, y \u00bfqu\u00e9 es lo que hace esa persona? \u00bfCu\u00e1l es su trabajo ah\u00ed arriba? \u00bfEn qu\u00e9 sube?<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Es casi como un faro, pero en lugar de barcos hay autos. Es como si la 9 de Julio<em> (N. de la R.: avenida fundamental del centro porte\u00f1o)<\/em> fuera el mar con un cardumen de autos en movimiento y gente pute\u00e1ndose. Hubo alg\u00fan informe televisivo en el que se met\u00edan por la escalera de caracol que recorre todo el Obelisco hacia arriba.<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0S\u00ed, se ve que cada tanto alguien (de la televisi\u00f3n) se hace la misma pregunta y dice \u00abllevamos una c\u00e1mara\u00bb y te muestran c\u00f3mo es por dentro y es una escalera medio fea, de hierro me 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Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Por suerte no lo vemos por dentro porque ser\u00eda m\u00e1s feo que por fuera. Bueno, viste que las personas somos horribles por dentro\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0S\u00ed, y por fuera mir\u00e1 la belleza que somos\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Yo soy hermoso, pero solo por fuera; por dentro, unas v\u00edsceras podridas, un est\u00f3mago horrible\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Todos somos as\u00ed adem\u00e1s, porque uno puede decir que no es gran cosa, pero la agarr\u00e1s a Emma Stone, la mostr\u00e1s por dentro y tambi\u00e9n es horrible.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Toda la humanidad compartimos un interior horrible. Por suerte tampoco podemos ver el interior de la mente de las personas, que debe de ser lo m\u00e1s feo que tenemos: algunas ideas podridas que por suerte est\u00e1n contenidas y escondidas.<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Hab\u00eda una pel\u00edcula sobre un tipo que inventaba un casquito y escuchaba lo que pensaba la gente alrededor. En una situaci\u00f3n as\u00ed se acaba, se termina la civilizaci\u00f3n\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Hablando de ciudades y humor gr\u00e1fico, estar lejos de una ciudad populosa como Buenos Aires, \u00bfte cambi\u00f3 la manera de hacer humor, impacta en el trabajo el contexto respecto de lo que era vivir ac\u00e1?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Yo en<em>\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/comic\/243364-macanudo-15-9789873818806\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Macanudo<\/a><\/span><\/em>\u00a0dibujaba y sigo dibujando mucha naturaleza, pero en una versi\u00f3n medio abstracta, rom\u00e1ntica y fantasiosa.\u00a0Un \u00e1rbol es un cosito para decorar la historieta. Y cuando llegu\u00e9 ac\u00e1 fue un empacho de \u00e1rboles y te das cuenta entonces: ah, mir\u00e1, no son un tronco y un rulito. Ah, mir\u00e1, a veces doblan raro; sale un \u00e1rbol de otro \u00e1rbol\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Yo soy un dibujante muy acotado. Un verdadero discapacitado gr\u00e1fico, entonces con el humor y la exageraci\u00f3n uno m\u00e1s o menos sabe por d\u00f3nde no le conviene ir, y zafamos, digamos. Pero dibujar ciudades y edificios me parece algo complej\u00edsimo. Escuch\u00e9 a muchos dibujantes decir que haciendo bosques y ambientes naturales zafan de la perspectiva del edificio, que cuesta un huevo.<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Yo prefiero toda la vida dibujar bosques que un solo edificio\u2026 es mejor hasta dibujar edificios de fondo, haciendo el truquito a lo Robert Crumb, en negro con las ventanitas en blanco y ya est\u00e1. Pero hacer 58 ventanas\u2026 Roberto Fontanarrosa me cont\u00f3 que hab\u00eda inventado a Inodoro Pereyra y lo hab\u00eda puesto en La Pampa para no dibujar edificios\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Claro, con una l\u00ednea ten\u00e9s cielo y tierra y chau\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00bfExiste la posibilidad de una segunda parte de este libro donde te dediques a la naturaleza argentina? Veo un libro as\u00ed, hablando de la fauna y la flora, la Patagonia, las cataratas del Iguaz\u00fa\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Tambi\u00e9n dibujar animales es muy lindo, castores, osos polares no, pero morsas, lobos marinos \u2014que son un animal muy t\u00edpico de Mar del Plata\u2014. Igual en\u00a0<em>Buenos Aires en pelotas<\/em>\u00a0me interesaba m\u00e1s hablar de la cultura porte\u00f1a que de los edificios y la ciudad dibujada, que hay varios libros que dibujan eso y los emblemas de Buenos Aires.\u00a0La idea era pegarle y criticar y re\u00edrse de la pedanter\u00eda, del taxista facho, de los lugares comunes de la \u00abporte\u00f1idad\u00bb.<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:\u00a0<\/strong>Los t\u00edtulos de los shows de<em> stand up\u2026<\/em><\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Yo me acuerdo, no s\u00e9 si sigue siendo as\u00ed, que el Paseo La Plaza era el lugar que concentraba la escena \u00abstandupera\u00bb porte\u00f1a, y por los carteles parec\u00eda que eran todos el mismo show<em>.<\/em>\u00a0\u00ab\u00a1Venga a re\u00edrse!\u00bb, \u00ab\u00a1Risas aseguradas!\u00bb, \u00ab\u00a1Burbuja de humor!\u00bb, \u00ab\u00a1R\u00edase como loco!\u00bb, todos con caras de gente desorbitadas, y capaz que uno era muy bueno y otro era muy malo, pero los afiches eran todos iguales\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Son todos \u00abque te vas a morir de risa\u00bb\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0M\u00e1s de uno debe de estar mintiendo. Yo no vi un solo afiche que diga \u00abeste zafa\u00bb\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Nosotros con Alberto Montt, cuando hacemos nuestro show, tratamos de ponerle casi mala onda, nosotros con barba y cara de enojados. Es preferible que la gente venga pensando \u00abesto capaz que es una porquer\u00eda\u00bb y se sorprenda.<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Yo creo que no hay que tener expectativas con nada, ni con una pel\u00edcula ni con una milanesa con papas fritas. Si vos ten\u00e9s pocas expectativas es mucho m\u00e1s f\u00e1cil que seas feliz en la vida\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Es verdad que la mira del libro est\u00e1 sobre el porte\u00f1o. C\u00f3mo somos, c\u00f3mo consumimos cultura, con peque\u00f1as observaciones sobre la feria del libro, gente que no lee un solo libro en todo el a\u00f1o se encierra ah\u00ed con\u00a0cincuenta mil personas\u2026 Otro momento de felicidad absoluta son los t\u00edtulos de las obras de teatro de la avenida Corrientes; obviamente como porte\u00f1o los adivin\u00e9 todos. Para quienes no hayan comprado el libro a\u00fan, tengo que decir que este es el libro que deber\u00edan comprar los turistas. Creo que este es el libro que te explica de salida qui\u00e9n es esta gente en esta ciudad, sin pelos en la lengua: c\u00f3mo es esta gente. Ven\u00eds de Chile, de Paraguay, de M\u00e9xico y le\u00e9s el libro y dec\u00eds: \u00abAh, son m\u00e1s o menos esto\u00bb.<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Titular teatro de revista es un fen\u00f3meno que est\u00e1 casi en v\u00edas de desaparici\u00f3n, el teatro del capoc\u00f3mico y la vedette, esos t\u00edtulos a lo \u00abEl champ\u00e1n las pone mimosas\u00bb, \u00abM\u00e1s pinas que las gallutas\u00bb, que son pr\u00e1cticamente un g\u00e9nero literario, que deber\u00eda tener reconocimiento mundial.<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00abCuatro colas y un funeral\u00bb. Pero fue muy lindo para m\u00ed saber que las conoc\u00eda todas y cuando aparec\u00eda una que inventaste vos me daba cuenta. Y otra cosa, que yo creo que es com\u00fan a todos los pa\u00edses, es el taxista facho. Nuestro colega, el artista talentoso Sergio Langer, tiene una teor\u00eda que dice: \u00bfpor qu\u00e9 todos los taxistas en todas las ciudades del mundo son fachos? Es porque ven gente todo el tiempo levantando la mano as\u00ed, en plan \u00abHeil, Hitler\u00bb\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0 Es bastante razonable, como una especie de impulso al nazismo que te lo van inoculando\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Claro, imag\u00ednate si trabajaras todo el d\u00eda en un lugar en el que te tiraran esv\u00e1sticas. No te das cuenta y te va horadando\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Hablando de libros nuevos, en este momento en que todo es digital y el humor gr\u00e1fico en todo caso es consumido en el celular, te sigue emocionando la salida de un libro nuevo (en papel), recibirlo, la relaci\u00f3n f\u00edsica con el objeto.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0S\u00ed, es generacional, tenemos un fetiche con el objeto. Si yo te pregunto ahora cu\u00e1ntos discos de los Beatles ten\u00e9s, mir\u00e1s a un costado (a tu biblioteca) y me dec\u00eds: \u00abMir\u00e1, ocho\u00bb. Y a la generaci\u00f3n de abajo le pregunt\u00e1s y te dicen tengo todo ac\u00e1, en Spotify. Todos los de los Beatles, los Rolling Stones, los Ramones\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Ac\u00e1 en mi pu\u00f1o\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Claro, pero mi cerebro no me permite pensar \u00abtengo toda la m\u00fasica\u00bb, aunque efectivamente la tenemos. Con los libros es lo mismo, necesito el objeto. Con\u00a0<em>Buenos Aires en pelotas<\/em>\u00a0me sacaste carcajadas. Uno de los factores m\u00e1s fuertes de tu humor es el <em>shock<\/em> y el grotesco y eso es dif\u00edcil de sostener porque con el grotesco muchas veces lleg\u00e1s a un techo y a la tercera, cuarta vez ya no te \u00abshockea\u00bb tanto, pero vos consegu\u00eds mantener el nivel. 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Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Es que es muy impresionante: cuando con una tira de\u00a0<em><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/comic-infantil\/208637-es-domingo-cada-dia\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Peanuts<\/a><\/span><\/em>, con una serie como <em>The Office<\/em>, cualquier cosa humor\u00edstica, te re\u00eds. Es muy groso que algo te haga re\u00edr. Me parece que es algo que la evoluci\u00f3n humana no termin\u00f3 de explicar\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Es que es como que le hiciste una toma de judo al cerebro, le hiciste algo que no ve\u00eda venir; el cerebro estaba mirando para all\u00e1, y vos entraste por ac\u00e1\u2026 A m\u00ed me sigue pasando cada vez que agarro un libro tuyo, cada vez que veo tus dibujos. Y hay un talento tuyo, un talento m\u00e1s raro en el dibujo. Para m\u00ed el dibujante de historieta admite dos posibilidades: ten\u00e9s la posibilidad de ser muy buen dibujante, dibujar muy bien, que yo veo m\u00e1s seguido, y\u00a0hay otro talento que es m\u00e1s raro, que es dibujar gracioso. Hay gente que dibuja muy mal y dibuja muy gracioso.\u00a0Yo creo que tiene que ver con la personalidad, que hay algo de la personalidad en el dibujo.<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0No s\u00e9 si te pasa a vos, pero hay una especie de conflicto con muchos colegas que el apunte, el boceto r\u00e1pido, termina teniendo m\u00e1s gracia o m\u00e1s onda que el original recontratrabajado. Yo trato de que el original tenga esa frescura y a veces pasa que el dibujo en un cuadernito que hago en un bar hecho en un minuto tiene m\u00e1s gracia que el original en el que tard\u00e9 horas, pero est\u00e1 bueno que digas que sigue teniendo gracia el dibujo, que es lo que me interesa como humorista.<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Para m\u00ed es eso, el talento de\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/primeras-lecturas\/137355-bart-simpson-guia-para-la-vida-los-simpson-9788440672476\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Matt Groening<\/a><\/span>, por ejemplo, por decir uno al que le fue bien, no es dibujar bien, sino dibujar gracioso. El de Gary Larson, el de Oski. No son\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/arte-cine-y-musica\/216916-caravaggio\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Caravaggio<\/a><\/span>\u00a0o Moebius, pero dibujan diez mil veces m\u00e1s gracioso que esos dos\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0O casos m\u00e1s extremos, como las historietas de Copi, <em>La mujer sentada<\/em>, o las que hac\u00eda\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/literatura-contemporanea\/165440-cuentos-completos-9789877690620\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Mario Levrero<\/a><\/span>\u00a0con Liz\u00e1n, <em>Los Profesionales<\/em>, que ten\u00edan ese minimalismo, ese<em> timing<\/em> casi teatral, de comedia, que si lo dibujara Milo Manara no pasar\u00eda nada\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Por eso otra fiesta cuando abro tus libros es el derrotero, una especie de<em>\u00a0horror vacui<\/em>, que yo tambi\u00e9n tengo, necesit\u00e1s meterle cosas por todos lados. Hay p\u00e1ginas de este libro que las veo y me canso; si yo hubiese imaginado la p\u00e1gina habr\u00eda pensado: \u00abS\u00ed, quedar\u00eda buena, pero no la voy a dibujar\u00bb. Todos los retratitos en el bar, de todos los cantantes grosos mientras suena Shakira, pienso: \u00abQu\u00e9 lindo, hacer un bar con los retratos de\u00a0<a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/biografias\/153502-gardel-la-biografia-9789870400134\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\">Gardel<\/span>\u00a0<\/a>y de Julio Sosa, pero \u00bfvoy a tener que dibujar a todos esos pibes?\u00bb.<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0De esa p\u00e1gina me acuerdo que est\u00e1bamos con amigos en el bar Margot, que es uno de los cl\u00e1sicos de los \u00abbares notables\u00bb de Boedo en Buenos Aires, y ten\u00eda la pared llena de los iconos del tango, Tita Merello, Polaco Goyeneche, Julio Sosa, pero sonaban canciones como<em> Waka waka <\/em>o\u00a0<em>A mover el culo<\/em> y pensaba: \u00ab\u00bfPor qu\u00e9 la l\u00f3gica no se aplica a la m\u00fasica, por qu\u00e9 no me pon\u00e9s un tango?\u00bb.<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Claro, miren alrededor, est\u00e1 ah\u00ed\u2026 Pero es lindo en tu libro, que est\u00e1 lleno de ponerle el ojo a esas cosas en las que somos recontradictorios.<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Y hablemos de la nariz, no me refiero a cuestiones qu\u00edmicas, sino a este fetiche de oler el libro, \u00bf<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/economia-politica-y-actualidad\/163250-odorama-9789877370522\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">vos ol\u00e9s tus libros<\/a><\/span>? Yo fue lo primero que hice cuando recib\u00ed el m\u00edo\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Es lo primero que hago y lo que tiene de lindo oler los libros es que, nuevo o viejo, todos garpan\u2026 Si ol\u00e9s una salchicha nueva tiene un olor que va, pero vieja ya no est\u00e1 tan bueno\u2026 en cambio oler un libro viejo tiene un olor \u00abcasi del tiempo\u00bb<em>\u2026<\/em><\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Es as\u00ed, en este caso, el de\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/comic\/261681-buenos-aires-en-pelotas-9789500765589\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Buenos Aires en pelotas<\/a><\/em><\/span>, es casi tan bueno el olor como el material. Tiene un olor que te hace re\u00edr, un olor con remate\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00bfEs verdad que te ibas a la imprenta y llevabas diferentes cosas para frotar contra los libros? Ropa sin lavar\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Estaba la tecnolog\u00eda de las figuritas de Rasp\u00e1 y ol\u00e9<em>\u2026<\/em><\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Lo recuerdo, pero no el olor. \u00bfFuncionaba?<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Hicieron algunas cosas de\u00a0<em>Ren y Stimpy<\/em>\u00a0donde le raspabas el culo y sal\u00eda olor a pedo, o de vomito. Habr\u00eda que hacer un libro sobre el riachuelo porte\u00f1o que sea rasp\u00e1 y ol\u00e9 y te agarra un c\u00e1ncer de nariz.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Bueno, y as\u00ed como Cal\u00e9 en\u00a0<em>Buenos Aires en camiseta<\/em>\u00a0es un cl\u00e1sico, tu nuevo libro es perfecto, estoy muy orgulloso, mi querido colega, de tu \u00faltima creaci\u00f3n\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Muchas gracias.<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Y voy a usar algunas cosas de tu libro en mis clases. Estuve dando algunas clases en la universidad sobre historia de la historieta latinoamericana, as\u00ed que esto me viene perfecto. Pero tambi\u00e9n me viene perfecto porque\u00a0me preguntan mucho los estudiantes qu\u00e9 es el peronismo y ac\u00e1 queda clar\u00edsimo qu\u00e9 es. Si alguien tiene esa duda\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Una de las cosas que es dif\u00edcil sacar de la Argentina, como la cultura de los<a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/biografias\/146553-recuerdos-que-mienten-un-poco-9789500762694\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"><span>\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\">Redonditos de Ricota<\/span><\/span><\/a>. Es imposible que no sean argentinas\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Me gusta que pusiste el peronismo electr\u00f3nico, el peronismo antiperonista\u2026 La mejor definici\u00f3n, un momento magistral de tu libro, que es para los historiadores y para los soci\u00f3logos, es que hiciste la definici\u00f3n perfecta. Finalmente alguien pudo definir qu\u00e9 es el peronismo:\u00a0<a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/historia\/160598-historia-del-peronismo-la-obsecuencia-1952-1955-9789876276962\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\">\u00bfQu\u00e9 es el peronismo?<\/span>\u00a0<\/a>Todo lo que no es el antiperonismo. Y \u00bfqu\u00e9 es el antiperonismo? Todo lo que no es el peronismo. Y listo, qued\u00f3 clar\u00edsimo, finalmente alguien lo consigui\u00f3.<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Ponele. Filosof\u00eda barata y zapatos de goma, podr\u00edamos decir, lo dijo\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/biografias\/143333-no-digas-nada-9789500746595\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Charly Garc\u00eda<\/a><\/span>. Y para ir despidi\u00e9ndonos, porque no quiero abusar de tu tiempo: \u00bfel concepto \u00abbares notables\u00bb tambi\u00e9n es un fen\u00f3meno solo argentino o en Estados Unidos tambi\u00e9n hay esa especie de cuidado patrimonial a los m\u00e1s coquetos o m\u00e1s bohemios?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0No conozco mucho, pero en Nueva York s\u00e9 que hay dos que entrar\u00edan en esa categor\u00eda que los bancan mucho tiempo y est\u00e1n siempre iguales. Uno es Katz, un lugar donde se comen s\u00e1ndwiches de pastrami, que es famoso porque ah\u00ed filmaron una escena de\u00a0<em>Cuando Harry conoci\u00f3 a Sally<\/em>, y lo mantienen como si fuese el Tortoni, as\u00ed como viejo y tal, como estaba; y el otro es Tom's Dinner, que yo creo que lo mantienen porque el caf\u00e9 por fuera es al que van siempre en\u00a0<em>Seinfeld<\/em>, es ese, y hay una canci\u00f3n de Suzanne Vega.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Es otro fen\u00f3meno de los fetichistas, la gente que va a hacerse la foto al bar de <em>Seinfeld<\/em> o a la tienda de la tapa de los Beastie Boys, Paul\u2019s Boutique. Y habr\u00e1 gente, los fan\u00e1ticos de\u00a0<em>Pizza, birra, faso<\/em>, que ir\u00e1n a Banchero, la pizzer\u00eda de la calle Corrientes; ni hablar del Obelisco, el Tortoni\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0Bueno, eso es otra cosa. Con la pandemia yo hace m\u00e1s de un a\u00f1o y medio que no puedo volver a Buenos Aires, as\u00ed que tu libro tambi\u00e9n tuvo un efecto emocional: me hiciste lagrimear, y no lo esperaba. Ah, Gustavo, me pegaste en el coraz\u00f3n\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Es lo que m\u00e1s quer\u00eda: hacerte llorar. Te agradezco mucho y espero que vuelvas en alg\u00fan momento y vayamos a tomar un caf\u00e9; a escuchar Shakira en un bar tanguero\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Liniers:<\/strong>\u00a0As\u00ed es; vamos a hablar de peronismo, de f\u00fatbol y de esa gran obra de teatro,\u00a0<em>M\u00e1s pinas que las gallutas\u2026<\/em><\/p><p><strong>Gustavo Sala:<\/strong>\u00a0Sos un gran colega, gracias por la onda.<br \/><br \/><br \/><strong>OTROS CONTENIDOS DE INTER\u00c9S:<\/strong><br \/><br \/><\/p><ul style=\\\"list-style-type: circle;\\\"><li><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/art-spiegelman-liniers\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Art Spiegelman: \u00abAuschwitz estaba en mi patio trasero: era mi casa\u00bb<\/a><\/span><\/li><li><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/stephen-king-george-rr-martin\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Stephen King y George R. R. Martin: \u00abLas ratas han sido muy buenas con nosotros\u00bb<\/a><\/span><\/li><li><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/chuck-palahniuk-club-de-la-lucha-fight-club\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Chuck Palahniuk y la saga de Fight Club: \u00abLas pesadillas son una buena 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15 minutos

Liniers y Sala conversan por Zoom desde Vermont y Buenos Aires, respectivamente. Autorretrato hecho a cuatro manos por ambos dibujantes.

Gustavo Sala: Ricardo, ¿me estás escuchando? ¡Estamos en vivo!

Liniers: Estamos en vivo y en directo, ¡ponele! La verdad es que yo ya no sé si esto va grabado o en vivo, ¡ya estoy perdido con los zooms! Pero ¿qué vinimos a hacer hoy? ¿Quién de los dos tiene libro nuevo?

Gustavo Sala: Bueno, yo seguro, probablemente vos también, pero ¡acabo de sacar mi primer libro con Random House! ¡¿Entendés, querido Ricardo Liniers?!

Liniers: Finalmente una corporación, algo así como con peso específico ¡en todo el planeta!

Gustavo Sala: Efectivamente, así que es el momento de que me haga millonario y deje de comer de los contenedores, que justamente es una de las cosas que más aparecen en mi libro: los contenedores y gente comiendo de ellos, uno de los paisajes más habituales de los últimos años en Buenos Aires. Que de eso se trata un poco el libro.

Liniers: Buenos Aires en pelotas, digamos ya bien el título, es el hermano menor de Buenos Aires en camiseta, o el hermano deforme. O el hermano zarpado. Siempre hay un hermano que está haciendo quilombo.

Gustavo Sala: Esa es la cita, por lo menos para el que entiende o sabe un poco de la tradición del humor gráfico argentino, al Gran Calé. Ese emblema del humor costumbrista que retrataba a la sociedad porteña, que fue Buenos Aires en camiseta y que a mí se me ocurrió un poco citar, desde el lado más negro y podrido y actualizado, esta cosa del humor que mira a la ciudad. 

Liniers: Vos hace ya un rato largo que mirás el mundo desde una lente muy interesante. Creo que sos el único que tiene esa lente. ¿Viste en Los Simpson que se ponen esos anteojos como de cervezas y ven a todo el mundo más lindo, las chicas son más lindas, etcétera? Vos tenés otros anteojos, que miran el mundo con otra visión…

Gustavo Sala: Para nosotros los dibujantes el trabajo es muy estático, de estar muchas horas en el mismo lugar, sentados. Es muy difícil dibujar en movimiento —yo lo he intentado y salen dibujos mucho peores—, entonces en mi caso, no sé en el tuyo, me gusta ir a trabajar a bares, para salir de la quietud del estudio. Sé que muchos colegas nuestros van a bares para escribir, para inspirarse, para observar, y justamente la fauna del bar de Buenos Aires te ofrece muchas ideas, muchos estímulos, y eso aparece en el libro. No sé si esto te interesa o estás siempre encerrado…

Liniers: Yo vivo en el medio del bosque, así que la opción de bar acá es un poco deprimente. Es casi como el bar de Moe, entonces prefiero quedarme en mi casa. Por ahí arrancó el libro entonces, ¿cómo empezó la idea? ¿Fue algo así como: «Voy a hacer un libro en el que sea Buenos Aires el epicentro y voy a analizar fauna, flora, cultura»? ¿Arrancó de que ibas a los bares y empezaste a mirar y a decir: «Uy, dibujo las tacitas, las expresiones de cómo se pide el cafecito, traeme la cuenta y hacés la firma en el aire…»? Cuando pedís la cuenta, Sala, ¿hacés la M larga o firmás tu nombre en el aire? Yo hago mi nombre…

Gustavo Sala: Esa es una de las preguntas que quería hacerte a vos, que sos un argentino viviendo en otra parte del mundo. Cuando uno pide la cuenta haciendo la firma en el aire, ¿es un fenómeno argentino o será mundial? 

Liniers: Yo lo hago acá en Estados Unidos y me traen la cuenta. Pero también acá te traen la cuenta cada diez minutos, es como que los tipos quieren todo el tiempo que la gente se vaya…

Gustavo Sala: Hagas lo que hagas…

Aquí arriba, una de las inspiraciones esenciales de Buenos Aires en pelotas: el clásico Buenos Aires en camiseta, del dibujante y humorista Calé (Alejandro del Prado), quien, proveniente de una ciudad del interior de la Argentina, observó con gracia y agudeza inusuales los usos y costumbres (y los padecimientos) de la gran urbe capitalina. Buenos Aires en camiseta se publicó en la muy popular revista Rico Tipo entre los años 1950 y 1963, año del temprano fallecimiento del autor. Esta página fue tomada de una reproducción digital hecha por una recomendable web especializada en humor gráfico rioplatense.

Liniers: Así es que no sé si hago así (N de la R: Liniers mueve la mano en el aire) y sienten que los estoy saludando y por eso me traen la cuenta…

Gustavo Sala: Bueno, son los introductores del concepto de la comida rápida, que podríamos extenderlo a todo: cine rápido, vida rápida, descanso rápido, todo rápido…

Liniers: Muerte rápida y listo, ya está. Nos sacamos de encima vivir lo antes posible…

Gustavo Sala: Volviendo a tu pregunta, viste que hay un fenómeno del libro de crónica, de la primera persona que observa —más que la propia historieta como tal— y justo la editorial me ofreció este formato, una especie de libro mala onda sobre Buenos Aires desde el humor. Hay muchos libros pensados para el turista, de fotos de San Telmo, de las tanguerías, guías turísticas, pero no encontré un libro así. Obviamente está el libro de los barrios de Rep, el propio Buenos Aires en camiseta, aquella joya de Scafati que era Mambo urbano, ¿te acordás?, que era su visión: creo que el mendocino Scafati cuando llega a Buenos Aires se escandaliza con toda la podredumbre porteña. Yo tenía ganas de ir más por ese lado, así que coincide el pedido de la editorial y mi búsqueda, recorriendo la ciudad, aparte siendo marplatense, la ventaja de venir de afuera de Buenos Aires...

Liniers: Igual Mar del Plata tiene algo de megalópolis… no es tan gigantesca como Buenos Aires, pero hay bondis, hay gente con mala onda…

Gustavo Sala: Sí, hay mala onda (también), pero no hay subte y hay un pequeño detalle que Buenos Aires no tiene, que es el mar…

Liniers: Sí, con el mar sentís que hay una salida, que hay un escape… Me gusta que arrancás por la historia de Buenos Aires. Hay mucho análisis del Obelisco como el símbolo fálico de Buenos Aires; la pregunta que quiero hacerte es de qué sexo es Buenos Aires… Porque Santa María de los Buenos Ayres no solo es femenina en sus inicios, sino que es femenina ¡y santa! 

Gustavo Sala: Sí, pero viste que yo trato de mirar lo que menos me gusta de la ciudad. Buenos Aires son muchas situaciones a la vez y es una ciudad de contradicciones, porque, por un lado, tenés este espíritu femenino en su origen y, por otro, esta cosa del Buenos Aires macho, del varón del tango, del reo, de polémica en el bar, del tipo pesado. Y un poco el Obelisco podría ser el símbolo, la poronga porteña que «cancherea» para el país y para el mundo, ¿no? Desafiante desde el machismo más rancio…

Liniers: Es que si las ciudades tuviesen sexo, si París fuese femenina o Bogotá masculina, por ejemplo, cabe la posibilidad de que Buenos Aires fuese una ciudad que transicionó de femenino a masculino en algún momento. Y es posible que la edificación del Obelisco haya sido el momento: son los años treinta y empieza a aparecer el peronismo, la popularidad del fútbol y la vida en camiseta. Se la dejamos a los historiadores…

Gustavo Sala: Pero viste que el Obelisco no es lindo: como edificio, como monumento, es bastante pobre. Sin embargo, es como el ícono porteño: no hay hasta ahora otro monumento que lo supere como representante de la postal porteña…

Liniers: No, totalmente. Como porteño de nacimiento, cuando era chiquito para mí era un signo de interrogación: ¿qué es eso? ¿Por qué hay algo blanco, alto, que apenas tenía unas ventanitas arriba…?  Pensabas: ¿hay alguien? Porque si tiene esas ventanitas es porque alguien tiene que estar ahí arriba metido, y ¿qué es lo que hace esa persona? ¿Cuál es su trabajo ahí arriba? ¿En qué sube?

Gustavo Sala: Es casi como un faro, pero en lugar de barcos hay autos. Es como si la 9 de Julio (N. de la R.: avenida fundamental del centro porteño) fuera el mar con un cardumen de autos en movimiento y gente puteándose. Hubo algún informe televisivo en el que se metían por la escalera de caracol que recorre todo el Obelisco hacia arriba.

Liniers: Sí, se ve que cada tanto alguien (de la televisión) se hace la misma pregunta y dice «llevamos una cámara» y te muestran cómo es por dentro y es una escalera medio fea, de hierro me parece.

Buenos Aires en la visión de Gustavo Sala, quien mantiene, como casi todos sus habitantes, una patológica relación de amor-odio con la ciudad.

Gustavo Sala: Por suerte no lo vemos por dentro porque sería más feo que por fuera. Bueno, viste que las personas somos horribles por dentro…

Liniers: Sí, y por fuera mirá la belleza que somos…

Gustavo Sala: Yo soy hermoso, pero solo por fuera; por dentro, unas vísceras podridas, un estómago horrible… 

Liniers: Todos somos así además, porque uno puede decir que no es gran cosa, pero la agarrás a Emma Stone, la mostrás por dentro y también es horrible. 

Gustavo Sala: Toda la humanidad compartimos un interior horrible. Por suerte tampoco podemos ver el interior de la mente de las personas, que debe de ser lo más feo que tenemos: algunas ideas podridas que por suerte están contenidas y escondidas.

Liniers: Había una película sobre un tipo que inventaba un casquito y escuchaba lo que pensaba la gente alrededor. En una situación así se acaba, se termina la civilización…

Gustavo Sala: Hablando de ciudades y humor gráfico, estar lejos de una ciudad populosa como Buenos Aires, ¿te cambió la manera de hacer humor, impacta en el trabajo el contexto respecto de lo que era vivir acá? 

Liniers: Yo en Macanudo dibujaba y sigo dibujando mucha naturaleza, pero en una versión medio abstracta, romántica y fantasiosa. Un árbol es un cosito para decorar la historieta. Y cuando llegué acá fue un empacho de árboles y te das cuenta entonces: ah, mirá, no son un tronco y un rulito. Ah, mirá, a veces doblan raro; sale un árbol de otro árbol…

Gustavo Sala: Yo soy un dibujante muy acotado. Un verdadero discapacitado gráfico, entonces con el humor y la exageración uno más o menos sabe por dónde no le conviene ir, y zafamos, digamos. Pero dibujar ciudades y edificios me parece algo complejísimo. Escuché a muchos dibujantes decir que haciendo bosques y ambientes naturales zafan de la perspectiva del edificio, que cuesta un huevo.

Liniers: Yo prefiero toda la vida dibujar bosques que un solo edificio… es mejor hasta dibujar edificios de fondo, haciendo el truquito a lo Robert Crumb, en negro con las ventanitas en blanco y ya está. Pero hacer 58 ventanas… Roberto Fontanarrosa me contó que había inventado a Inodoro Pereyra y lo había puesto en La Pampa para no dibujar edificios… 

Gustavo Sala: Claro, con una línea tenés cielo y tierra y chau…

Liniers: ¿Existe la posibilidad de una segunda parte de este libro donde te dediques a la naturaleza argentina? Veo un libro así, hablando de la fauna y la flora, la Patagonia, las cataratas del Iguazú…

Gustavo Sala: También dibujar animales es muy lindo, castores, osos polares no, pero morsas, lobos marinos —que son un animal muy típico de Mar del Plata—. Igual en Buenos Aires en pelotas me interesaba más hablar de la cultura porteña que de los edificios y la ciudad dibujada, que hay varios libros que dibujan eso y los emblemas de Buenos Aires. La idea era pegarle y criticar y reírse de la pedantería, del taxista facho, de los lugares comunes de la «porteñidad».

Liniers: Los títulos de los shows de stand up…

Gustavo Sala: Yo me acuerdo, no sé si sigue siendo así, que el Paseo La Plaza era el lugar que concentraba la escena «standupera» porteña, y por los carteles parecía que eran todos el mismo show. «¡Venga a reírse!», «¡Risas aseguradas!», «¡Burbuja de humor!», «¡Ríase como loco!», todos con caras de gente desorbitadas, y capaz que uno era muy bueno y otro era muy malo, pero los afiches eran todos iguales…

Liniers: Son todos «que te vas a morir de risa»… 

Gustavo Sala: Más de uno debe de estar mintiendo. Yo no vi un solo afiche que diga «este zafa»…

Liniers: Nosotros con Alberto Montt, cuando hacemos nuestro show, tratamos de ponerle casi mala onda, nosotros con barba y cara de enojados. Es preferible que la gente venga pensando «esto capaz que es una porquería» y se sorprenda.

Gustavo Sala: Yo creo que no hay que tener expectativas con nada, ni con una película ni con una milanesa con papas fritas. Si vos tenés pocas expectativas es mucho más fácil que seas feliz en la vida…

Liniers: Es verdad que la mira del libro está sobre el porteño. Cómo somos, cómo consumimos cultura, con pequeñas observaciones sobre la feria del libro, gente que no lee un solo libro en todo el año se encierra ahí con cincuenta mil personas… Otro momento de felicidad absoluta son los títulos de las obras de teatro de la avenida Corrientes; obviamente como porteño los adiviné todos. Para quienes no hayan comprado el libro aún, tengo que decir que este es el libro que deberían comprar los turistas. Creo que este es el libro que te explica de salida quién es esta gente en esta ciudad, sin pelos en la lengua: cómo es esta gente. Venís de Chile, de Paraguay, de México y leés el libro y decís: «Ah, son más o menos esto».

Gustavo Sala: Titular teatro de revista es un fenómeno que está casi en vías de desaparición, el teatro del capocómico y la vedette, esos títulos a lo «El champán las pone mimosas», «Más pinas que las gallutas», que son prácticamente un género literario, que debería tener reconocimiento mundial.

Liniers: «Cuatro colas y un funeral». Pero fue muy lindo para mí saber que las conocía todas y cuando aparecía una que inventaste vos me daba cuenta. Y otra cosa, que yo creo que es común a todos los países, es el taxista facho. Nuestro colega, el artista talentoso Sergio Langer, tiene una teoría que dice: ¿por qué todos los taxistas en todas las ciudades del mundo son fachos? Es porque ven gente todo el tiempo levantando la mano así, en plan «Heil, Hitler»…

Gustavo Sala:  Es bastante razonable, como una especie de impulso al nazismo que te lo van inoculando…

Liniers: Claro, imagínate si trabajaras todo el día en un lugar en el que te tiraran esvásticas. No te das cuenta y te va horadando…

Gustavo Sala: Hablando de libros nuevos, en este momento en que todo es digital y el humor gráfico en todo caso es consumido en el celular, te sigue emocionando la salida de un libro nuevo (en papel), recibirlo, la relación física con el objeto. 

Liniers: Sí, es generacional, tenemos un fetiche con el objeto. Si yo te pregunto ahora cuántos discos de los Beatles tenés, mirás a un costado (a tu biblioteca) y me decís: «Mirá, ocho». Y a la generación de abajo le preguntás y te dicen tengo todo acá, en Spotify. Todos los de los Beatles, los Rolling Stones, los Ramones…

Gustavo Sala: Acá en mi puño… 

Liniers: Claro, pero mi cerebro no me permite pensar «tengo toda la música», aunque efectivamente la tenemos. Con los libros es lo mismo, necesito el objeto. Con Buenos Aires en pelotas me sacaste carcajadas. Uno de los factores más fuertes de tu humor es el shock y el grotesco y eso es difícil de sostener porque con el grotesco muchas veces llegás a un techo y a la tercera, cuarta vez ya no te «shockea» tanto, pero vos conseguís mantener el nivel. Hace veinte, treinta años que te leo y hago «qué pelotudo, ja ja ja»…

Gustavo Sala: Que te digan «qué pelotudo» es un gran piropo…

Liniers: Cuando alguien se ríe diciendo «qué boludo que sos» es que te dice: me cagaste, doblegaste mi cerebro…

En el transporte público porteño... unos sesenta años después de las viñetas de Calé.

Gustavo Sala: Es que es muy impresionante: cuando con una tira de Peanuts, con una serie como The Office, cualquier cosa humorística, te reís. Es muy groso que algo te haga reír. Me parece que es algo que la evolución humana no terminó de explicar…

Liniers: Es que es como que le hiciste una toma de judo al cerebro, le hiciste algo que no veía venir; el cerebro estaba mirando para allá, y vos entraste por acá… A mí me sigue pasando cada vez que agarro un libro tuyo, cada vez que veo tus dibujos. Y hay un talento tuyo, un talento más raro en el dibujo. Para mí el dibujante de historieta admite dos posibilidades: tenés la posibilidad de ser muy buen dibujante, dibujar muy bien, que yo veo más seguido, y hay otro talento que es más raro, que es dibujar gracioso. Hay gente que dibuja muy mal y dibuja muy gracioso. Yo creo que tiene que ver con la personalidad, que hay algo de la personalidad en el dibujo.

Gustavo Sala: No sé si te pasa a vos, pero hay una especie de conflicto con muchos colegas que el apunte, el boceto rápido, termina teniendo más gracia o más onda que el original recontratrabajado. Yo trato de que el original tenga esa frescura y a veces pasa que el dibujo en un cuadernito que hago en un bar hecho en un minuto tiene más gracia que el original en el que tardé horas, pero está bueno que digas que sigue teniendo gracia el dibujo, que es lo que me interesa como humorista.

Liniers: Para mí es eso, el talento de Matt Groening, por ejemplo, por decir uno al que le fue bien, no es dibujar bien, sino dibujar gracioso. El de Gary Larson, el de Oski. No son Caravaggio o Moebius, pero dibujan diez mil veces más gracioso que esos dos…

Gustavo Sala: O casos más extremos, como las historietas de Copi, La mujer sentada, o las que hacía Mario Levrero con Lizán, Los Profesionales, que tenían ese minimalismo, ese timing casi teatral, de comedia, que si lo dibujara Milo Manara no pasaría nada…

Liniers: Por eso otra fiesta cuando abro tus libros es el derrotero, una especie de horror vacui, que yo también tengo, necesitás meterle cosas por todos lados. Hay páginas de este libro que las veo y me canso; si yo hubiese imaginado la página habría pensado: «Sí, quedaría buena, pero no la voy a dibujar». Todos los retratitos en el bar, de todos los cantantes grosos mientras suena Shakira, pienso: «Qué lindo, hacer un bar con los retratos de Gardel y de Julio Sosa, pero ¿voy a tener que dibujar a todos esos pibes?».

Gustavo Sala: De esa página me acuerdo que estábamos con amigos en el bar Margot, que es uno de los clásicos de los «bares notables» de Boedo en Buenos Aires, y tenía la pared llena de los iconos del tango, Tita Merello, Polaco Goyeneche, Julio Sosa, pero sonaban canciones como Waka waka A mover el culo y pensaba: «¿Por qué la lógica no se aplica a la música, por qué no me ponés un tango?».

Liniers: Claro, miren alrededor, está ahí… Pero es lindo en tu libro, que está lleno de ponerle el ojo a esas cosas en las que somos recontradictorios.

Gustavo Sala: Y hablemos de la nariz, no me refiero a cuestiones químicas, sino a este fetiche de oler el libro, ¿vos olés tus libros? Yo fue lo primero que hice cuando recibí el mío…

Liniers: Es lo primero que hago y lo que tiene de lindo oler los libros es que, nuevo o viejo, todos garpan… Si olés una salchicha nueva tiene un olor que va, pero vieja ya no está tan bueno… en cambio oler un libro viejo tiene un olor «casi del tiempo»

Gustavo Sala: Es así, en este caso, el de Buenos Aires en pelotas, es casi tan bueno el olor como el material. Tiene un olor que te hace reír, un olor con remate…

Liniers: ¿Es verdad que te ibas a la imprenta y llevabas diferentes cosas para frotar contra los libros? Ropa sin lavar… 

Gustavo Sala: Estaba la tecnología de las figuritas de Raspá y olé

Liniers: Lo recuerdo, pero no el olor. ¿Funcionaba?

Gustavo Sala: Hicieron algunas cosas de Ren y Stimpy donde le raspabas el culo y salía olor a pedo, o de vomito. Habría que hacer un libro sobre el riachuelo porteño que sea raspá y olé y te agarra un cáncer de nariz. 

Liniers: Bueno, y así como Calé en Buenos Aires en camiseta es un clásico, tu nuevo libro es perfecto, estoy muy orgulloso, mi querido colega, de tu última creación…

Gustavo Sala: Muchas gracias.

Liniers: Y voy a usar algunas cosas de tu libro en mis clases. Estuve dando algunas clases en la universidad sobre historia de la historieta latinoamericana, así que esto me viene perfecto. Pero también me viene perfecto porque me preguntan mucho los estudiantes qué es el peronismo y acá queda clarísimo qué es. Si alguien tiene esa duda…

Gustavo Sala: Una de las cosas que es difícil sacar de la Argentina, como la cultura de los Redonditos de Ricota. Es imposible que no sean argentinas…

Liniers: Me gusta que pusiste el peronismo electrónico, el peronismo antiperonista… La mejor definición, un momento magistral de tu libro, que es para los historiadores y para los sociólogos, es que hiciste la definición perfecta. Finalmente alguien pudo definir qué es el peronismo: ¿Qué es el peronismo? Todo lo que no es el antiperonismo. Y ¿qué es el antiperonismo? Todo lo que no es el peronismo. Y listo, quedó clarísimo, finalmente alguien lo consiguió.

Gustavo Sala: Ponele. Filosofía barata y zapatos de goma, podríamos decir, lo dijo Charly García. Y para ir despidiéndonos, porque no quiero abusar de tu tiempo: ¿el concepto «bares notables» también es un fenómeno solo argentino o en Estados Unidos también hay esa especie de cuidado patrimonial a los más coquetos o más bohemios? 

Liniers: No conozco mucho, pero en Nueva York sé que hay dos que entrarían en esa categoría que los bancan mucho tiempo y están siempre iguales. Uno es Katz, un lugar donde se comen sándwiches de pastrami, que es famoso porque ahí filmaron una escena de Cuando Harry conoció a Sally, y lo mantienen como si fuese el Tortoni, así como viejo y tal, como estaba; y el otro es Tom's Dinner, que yo creo que lo mantienen porque el café por fuera es al que van siempre en Seinfeld, es ese, y hay una canción de Suzanne Vega. 

Gustavo Sala: Es otro fenómeno de los fetichistas, la gente que va a hacerse la foto al bar de Seinfeld o a la tienda de la tapa de los Beastie Boys, Paul’s Boutique. Y habrá gente, los fanáticos de Pizza, birra, faso, que irán a Banchero, la pizzería de la calle Corrientes; ni hablar del Obelisco, el Tortoni… 

Liniers: Bueno, eso es otra cosa. Con la pandemia yo hace más de un año y medio que no puedo volver a Buenos Aires, así que tu libro también tuvo un efecto emocional: me hiciste lagrimear, y no lo esperaba. Ah, Gustavo, me pegaste en el corazón…

Gustavo Sala: Es lo que más quería: hacerte llorar. Te agradezco mucho y espero que vuelvas en algún momento y vayamos a tomar un café; a escuchar Shakira en un bar tanguero…

Liniers: Así es; vamos a hablar de peronismo, de fútbol y de esa gran obra de teatro, Más pinas que las gallutas…

Gustavo Sala: Sos un gran colega, gracias por la onda.


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