Entrevistas

Jorge Baradit, el hombre que le dio la vuelta a la historia de Chile

El fenómeno de Jorge Baradit en Chile es extraordinario: sus libros no solo han vendido el insospechado número de 400.000 ejemplares, sino que, además, han abierto y acompañado un debate que llevaba latente décadas: el de la revisión de la historia nacional forjada en los últimos cuarenta años. En esta entrevista con Edmundo Paz Soldán, el mismo Baradit repasa sus orígenes como novelista de ciencia ficción, su incursión en la divulgación histórica y la sincronicidad perfecta que hizo de sus libros la música de fondo de las revueltas sociales que salieron a tumbar estatuas de próceres en las calles de Santiago de Chile.

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fines de 2007, en la feria del libro de Santiago, un amigo me regal\u00f3 un ejemplar de <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/ciencia-ficcion\/226002-ygdrasil-9789569646799\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Ygdrasil<\/a><\/em>,<\/span> la primera novela de\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/2644-jorge-baradit\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Jorge Baradit<\/a><\/span> (Valpara\u00edso, 1969). La novela me interes\u00f3 mucho por su intento de hacer una ciencia ficci\u00f3n vern\u00e1cula, mezclando las nuevas tecnolog\u00edas con elementos de los pueblos originarios del continente (chamanes, imbunches): en palabras del mismo Baradit, un \u00abciberchamanismo\u00bb<em>.<\/em> Poco despu\u00e9s conoc\u00ed a Jorge en un congreso de ficci\u00f3n \u00abextra\u00f1a\u00bb latinoamericana en Santiago; los medios lo ve\u00edan como parte de un grupo emergente de escritores chilenos \u2014que inclu\u00eda a Mike Wilson, \u00c1lvaro Bisama y Francisco Ortega\u2014 que experimentaba con g\u00e9neros populares (el horror, el fant\u00e1stico, la ciencia ficci\u00f3n, la historieta) para narrar el desestabilizador presente chileno. 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diez a\u00f1os despu\u00e9s me encontr\u00e9 con Baradit en un congreso en Buenos Aires y me regal\u00f3 <em><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/literatura-contemporanea\/225523-historia-secreta-de-chile-2-9789562624862\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Historia secreta de Chile 2<\/a><\/span>. <\/em>Al entregarme el libro con una portada provocativa \u2014O'Higgins con los ic\u00f3nicos anteojos oscuros de Pinochet\u2014 me dijo que, <strong>si bien utilizaba elementos de la ficci\u00f3n narrativa, se trataba de un proyecto de divulgaci\u00f3n de la historia chilena<\/strong> (\u00abMe siento m\u00e1s bien un investigador del alma de mi pa\u00eds\u00bb). Lo le\u00ed salteado \u2014el formato invitaba a ello\u2014 y record\u00e9 c\u00f3mo, de ni\u00f1o, mientras recib\u00eda una formaci\u00f3n did\u00e1ctica de la historia boliviana en las clases y en las horas c\u00edvicas del colegio, hab\u00eda aprendido mucho de la historia boliviana a trav\u00e9s de las leyendas y tradiciones que circulaban en libros y revistas de corte popular. 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despu\u00e9s me enter\u00e9 de la controversia por esos libros entre los historiadores chilenos y de su \u00e9xito comercial. Cuatro a\u00f1os m\u00e1s tarde y con siete libros publicados de la misma familia \u2014tres de <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/historia\/225528-historia-secreta-de-chile-3-9789562624978\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Historia secreta<\/a><\/span><em>,<\/em> dos de <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/biografias\/225541-heroes-9789562625883\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">H\u00e9roes<\/a><\/span>, uno sobre los a\u00f1os de Pinochet (<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/historia\/225534-la-dictadura-9789562625661\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">La dictadura<\/a><\/em><\/span>) y uno m\u00e1s personal sobre el estallido social de 2019 (<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/historia\/225544-rebelion-9789562625951\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Rebeli\u00f3n<\/a><\/em><\/span>)\u2014, a los que se a\u00f1ade una exitosa serie televisiva en Chilevisi\u00f3n (diez cap\u00edtulos hasta ahora), la pol\u00e9mica sobre los usos de la historia en Baradit no ha desaparecido: mientras Cristina Moyano, directora del Departamento de Historia de la Universidad de Chile, dice que su trama narrativa \u00abreduce la complejidad de los procesos hist\u00f3ricos\u2026 la din\u00e1mica argumentativa que usa es muy simplificadora\u00bb, Cristian Castro, director de la Escuela de Historia de la Universidad Diego Portales, se\u00f1ala que \u00ablo que hace lo hace bien, porque acerca a la gente a la historia\u2026 Baradit se hace cargo de un nicho, que en otros lados se denomina historia narrativa y que en Chile no hab\u00eda prendido demasiado\u00bb. Al respecto, Baradit dice:<strong> \u00abTengo claro que hago de puente entre la gente com\u00fan y contenidos hist\u00f3ricos m\u00e1s complejos. Cuando me piden que mi trabajo sea de tal o cual manera, no entienden que est\u00e1n llevando este esfuerzo hacia el lugar alejado donde se vuelve inalcanzable para las personas comunes. No se trata de que ellos se vulgaricen o que yo me vuelva m\u00e1s acad\u00e9mico, sino que funcionemos por carriles complementarios\u00bb.<\/strong> Baradit menciona a historiadores con los que dialoga su obra (Gabriel Salazar, Sergio Grez Toso, Julio Pinto, Mar\u00eda Ang\u00e9lica Illanes, del movimiento de la Nueva Historia chilena, y un precursor de aquella, Luis Vitale), \u00abque buscan la interpretaci\u00f3n de la historia \\\"desde abajo y desde adentro\\\", como dice el profesor Salazar\u00bb.<\/p><p>La recepci\u00f3n entre los lectores demuestra que la historia narrativa de Baradit se ha convertido en un fen\u00f3meno cultural: <strong>con 400.000 ejemplares vendidos, podr\u00eda decirse que las nuevas generaciones de chilenos est\u00e1n aprendiendo de la historia a trav\u00e9s de sus libros.<\/strong> Es un salto impresionante, si uno piensa que Baradit dice que el disparador de su proyecto es haberse encontrado de adolescente con el disco de Quilapay\u00fan <em>Cantata de la escuela Santa Mar\u00eda de Iquique, <\/em>compuesta por Luis Advis: \u00abEn ella se relata la masacre de obreros del salitre ocurrida en 1907, que postula a ser la masacre m\u00e1s grande del siglo XX en tiempos de paz. Durante unos d\u00edas pens\u00e9 que se trataba de un hecho de ficci\u00f3n hasta que me explicaron que hab\u00eda ocurrido realmente. Me sorprend\u00ed de que un hecho tan gravoso no se ense\u00f1ara en las escuelas\u00bb.<\/p><p>As\u00ed, <strong>esa historia que no se ense\u00f1a en las escuelas es la argamasa que solidifica el proyecto hist\u00f3rico m\u00e1s popular de Chile.<\/strong> Consciente de su alcance en un momento complejo para el pa\u00eds, en plena discusi\u00f3n sobre la envergadura de la reforma constitucional, Baradit ha decidido seguir poniendo entre par\u00e9ntesis su trabajo como novelista para asumir su \u00abresponsabilidad civil hist\u00f3rica\u00bb\u00a0y ahondar en la<em> <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/audiolibros-de-historia-y-biografias\/225531-historia-secreta-de-chile-9789562625432\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Historia secreta<\/a><\/span><\/em>: \u00abEl primer libro fue escrito con soltura y algunas licencias. A partir del segundo esas licencias desaparecieron y he seguido un camino de creciente cuidado para entregar un texto que siempre va a ser menos profundo que un <em>paper<\/em> acad\u00e9mico, pero no menos ajustado a las fuentes, que es el \u00fanico cable a tierra que tiene la historia\u00bb.\u00a0<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"p0w41g2\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abEl principal distribuidor de la historia patria, el Estado, no ense\u00f1a Historia realmente, sino que imparte una especie de curso de inducci\u00f3n al orgullo nacional. Forma peque\u00f1os patrioteros que deben sentirse superiores a sus vecinos para que en un momento dado puedan matarlos si el Estado lo requiere\u00bb.<br \/>\u00a0<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"10\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"10\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"5oihw1x\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><b>Edmundo Paz Sold\u00e1n:\u00a0<\/b><strong>\u00bfC\u00f3mo definir\u00edas tu relaci\u00f3n con la historia?<\/strong><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/2644-jorge-baradit\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"><strong>Jorge Baradit:<\/strong><\/a><\/span> Hay una cuesti\u00f3n emocional en lo que hago que usualmente no es parte de la labor de un historiador. Siento la necesidad basal, como narrador, de hacer sentir al otro las cosas que quiero compartir y eso implica no solamente transmitir datos y procesos, sino poner en el lugar a la persona, oler la p\u00f3lvora, sentir el amor o la venganza, la furia del postergado, cuestiones humanas definitorias de las que la historia est\u00e1 llena, pero que a\u00fan no encuentran su lugar en la academia, cuestiones imprescindibles para comprender y abrazar procesos o momentos. Meterle sangre, endorfinas, asco y amor, lo que permite entender y vincularse mejor al fen\u00f3meno. Todo esto sin desvincularme de la fuente, el dato, la rigurosidad en la cita y el apego al archivo. No hago novela hist\u00f3rica, hago narrativa de la historia.<\/p><p><b>Edmundo Paz Sold\u00e1n:\u00a0<\/b><strong>Hayden White dec\u00eda que los historiadores usaban tramas literarias y argumentos formales para entramar sus historias, y discut\u00eda la misma noci\u00f3n de una historia objetiva. T\u00fa hablas de la historia como un cuento y de la conexi\u00f3n de la literatura con la historia (echando mano a la emoci\u00f3n para sumergir al lector en la historia). Entonces \u00bfla historia no es la del que m\u00e1s respeta los hechos, sino la del que mejor los conecta emocionalmente para el lector?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Jorge Baradit:<\/strong> El hombre siempre est\u00e1 eligiendo qu\u00e9 contar y qu\u00e9 no del evento en el que est\u00e1 inmerso para convertirlo en algo medianamente coherente, siente la compulsi\u00f3n de darle sentido a lo vivido, pero es una l\u00ednea de eventos escogidos, no la realidad en s\u00ed. La historia, como disciplina, se ha inclinado por un criterio cient\u00edfico para buscar algo parecido a la objetividad en su intento por llegar a consensos sobre el pasado y construir un relato com\u00fan libre de las subjetividades, para construir comunidad en torno a \u00e9l, entre otras cosas, de nuevo, para administrarlo y explicarse. Desgraciadamente, ese objetivo carga con una fatalidad: al no haber objeto de estudio presente \u2014los hechos se esfuman a medida que ocurren\u2014 es imposible hacer ciencia con \u00e9l, y ella termina siendo un criterio de orden \u00e9tico, es decir, hay un compromiso del historiador con la verdad \u2014en este caso, los vestigios de ella: fuentes, fotograf\u00edas, cr\u00f3nicas, objetos, etc.\u2014, pero una imposibilidad impl\u00edcita de alcanzarla. Esto abre la puerta a las interpretaciones: \u00bfqu\u00e9 me interesa de todo aquello como divulgador hist\u00f3rico? Divulgar una historia que le haga sentido al 80 % de mi pa\u00eds, acostumbrado a consumir un relato en el que no aparece, uno donde es espectador de los hechos de otras personas, de una \u00e9lite que parece estar constituida por gente con uniformes o fracs que construye la historia y donde \u00e9l es solo comparsa. Mostrarle que existe un punto de vista de la mayor\u00eda donde los hechos se interpretan diferente, donde \u00e9l ha sido protagonista, donde los personajes notables son otros y el pa\u00eds se ve completamente diferente. En Chile se llama \u00abhistoria social\u00bb, es un fen\u00f3meno relativamente nuevo y divulgarla me pone en tela de juicio por cuestionar la historia oficial que distribuye el Estado o el <em>establishment<\/em> de la historia, que la utiliza como herramienta de poder. Conocer ese punto de vista \u00abdesde abajo\u00bb ha empoderado a la ciudadan\u00eda, mostr\u00e1ndole que son protagonistas de los procesos hist\u00f3ricos tanto como cualquier general o presidente de la rep\u00fablica, que tienen procesos y objetivos propios, h\u00e9roes propios que se parecen a ellos y a sus sue\u00f1os.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"45\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"v2pybj7\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abLos cuentos de hadas de la historia escolar no ser\u00edan problema si se reemplazaran, en estadios m\u00e1s avanzados de la educaci\u00f3n, por relatos m\u00e1s maduros y cr\u00edticos. Pero ello no ocurre y la gente se muere gritando contra los vecinos y amando a los uniformados, jurando que esos cuentos de hadas de su infancia son el alma nacional. Mi trabajo tiene que ver con romperle sus sue\u00f1os de infancia a gente que termina odi\u00e1ndote por ello\u00bb.\u00a0<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"wkdjwsg\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><b>Edmundo Paz Sold\u00e1n:\u00a0<\/b><strong>Entonces \u00bfte parece que la ficci\u00f3n tiene un lugar en la escritura de la historia?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Jorge Baradit:<\/strong> La historia es ficci\u00f3n con un pie forzado. Me recuerda el ejercicio que hizo Michael Crichton en <em>Jurassic Park<\/em>, cuando toma restos de ADN de dinosaurio y los monta sobre el ADN de reptiles actuales para intentar replicar a un tiranosaurio. La historia nace con una fatalidad insuperable \u2014hasta que inventemos una m\u00e1quina del tiempo: el pasado es inalcanzable y hay que montar sus fragmentos sobre nuestros paradigmas, ideas preconcebidas inevitables, mirarlo a trav\u00e9s de tres o cuatro mecanismos espurios, intentar avizorar algo entre la niebla y el ruido de se\u00f1ales mal sintonizadas y certezas que se desvanecen a la velocidad de un minuto por minuto.<\/p><p><b>Edmundo Paz Sold\u00e1n:\u00a0<\/b><strong>\u00bfQu\u00e9 piensas de la historia que se ense\u00f1a en los colegios de Chile?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Jorge Baradit:<\/strong> El principal distribuidor de la historia patria, el Estado, no ense\u00f1a Historia realmente, sino que imparte una especie de curso de inducci\u00f3n al orgullo nacional. Introducir a ni\u00f1os al c\u00edrculo de pertenencia nacional a trav\u00e9s de relatos heroicos para avivar lo propio, adem\u00e1s de instalar ciertos valores y conductas deseables en el ciudadano, por ejemplo, lo maravilloso que es matarse por la patria. La escuela no ense\u00f1a Historia, forma peque\u00f1os patrioteros que deben sentirse superiores a sus vecinos para que en un momento dado puedan matarlos si el Estado lo requiere. Cuentos de hadas que no ser\u00edan problema si se reemplazaran, en estadios m\u00e1s avanzados de la educaci\u00f3n, por relatos m\u00e1s maduros y cr\u00edticos, pero ello no ocurre y la gente se muere gritando contra los vecinos y amando a los uniformados, jurando que esos cuentos de hadas de su infancia son el alma nacional. Mi trabajo tambi\u00e9n tiene que ver con romperle sus sue\u00f1os de infancia a gente que termina odi\u00e1ndote por ello. Mi inter\u00e9s despu\u00e9s de seis libros sigue ah\u00ed, en proponer una nueva mirada a diferentes procesos hist\u00f3ricos que ayuden a interpretar el presente. No son proyectos inocentes, tienen punto de vista, el de los trabajadores, el de la mayor\u00eda, y tiene horizonte definido: ayudarlos a posicionarse como agentes hist\u00f3ricos capaces de modificar su realidad. A saber, qui\u00e9nes fueron, para que sepan qui\u00e9nes son y qui\u00e9nes quieren ser en el futuro.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"45\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"lats05r\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abSeg\u00fan un levantamiento realizado por el artista visual chileno Mauricio Mu\u00f1oz, el 80 % de las estatuas p\u00fablicas santiaguinas son a militares. No tengo nada contra ellos, pero los valores militares no son iguales a los civiles. Para un militar es fundamental la obediencia ciega; la sociedad civil requiere discrepancia y cr\u00edtica para desarrollarse, por ejemplo. Chile necesita recuperar y divulgar a personajes civiles que comuniquen valores civiles como la tolerancia, la diversidad, el respeto mutuo para construir un pa\u00eds diferente, mejor\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"gy1riz4\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><b>Edmundo Paz Sold\u00e1n:\u00a0<\/b><strong>Hablas de una historia escrita por los de abajo, en oposici\u00f3n a una historia \u00aboficial\u00bb que privilegia aspectos gloriosos de los grandes hombres. Si bien hay un tipo de historia que desde\u00f1a esa vieja idea de los grandes hombres como motores de la historia y se concentra m\u00e1s bien en contar la vida cotidiana, t\u00fa sigues apostando por esos grandes hombres (y mujeres): tienes incluso una serie llamada H\u00e9roes<em>.<\/em> \u00bfNo es esa una mirada un poco desfasada de c\u00f3mo se construye la historia? Porque en tu proyecto no se trata de que no haya estatuas, sino de que las estatuas sean otras, \u00bfno?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Jorge Baradit:<\/strong> La idea del \u00abh\u00e9roe\u00bb como motor de la historia es efectivamente un lastre decimon\u00f3nico en la manera de ver la historia. En el caso de<em>\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/biografias\/225541-heroes-9789562625883\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">H\u00e9roes 1<\/a><\/span><\/em> y<em> <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/historia\/237849-heroes-2-9789562626187\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">H\u00e9roes 2<\/a><\/span><\/em>, utilizo la figura, pero a la luz de otra definici\u00f3n: el h\u00e9roe como la persona excepcional capaz de convocar y canalizar a la multitud, la persona que re\u00fane valores que representan cuestiones que se quieren realzar y que son relevantes para las personas. No son mes\u00edas iluminados, son m\u00e1s bien puntas de lanza que no son nada sin el brazo y el cuerpo social que las arroja. Pero adem\u00e1s me interesan los h\u00e9roes desde su dimensi\u00f3n pedag\u00f3gica. En el caso de mi pa\u00eds, me parece que hay necesidad de profundo cambio en los valores que se promueven. Por alg\u00fan misterio, se ha instalado, durante el par de cientos de a\u00f1os que tenemos como rep\u00fablica, que nuestros militares son los guardianes de los valores nacionales. En Estados Unidos, por ejemplo, a pesar de que George Washington fue un militar de tomo y lomo, en los billetes aparece vestido de civil, como en la mayor\u00eda de las representaciones pict\u00f3ricas relacionadas a su figura. Lo mismo todos los padres fundadores. Sin embargo, en Chile, se insiste en mostrar en todas las representaciones de nuestros libertadores su dimensi\u00f3n militar. Bernardo O'Higgins era un hacendado, nunca tuvo instrucci\u00f3n militar; Manuel Rodr\u00edguez era abogado y, sin embargo, en todos los libros de texto y representaciones aparecen uniformados y en funciones b\u00e9licas. Seg\u00fan un levantamiento realizado por Mauricio Mu\u00f1oz, un artista visual chileno, el 80 % de las estatuas p\u00fablicas santiaguinas son a militares. No tengo nada contra ellos, pero los valores militares no son iguales a los civiles. Para un militar es fundamental la obediencia ciega, la sociedad civil requiere discrepancia y cr\u00edtica para desarrollarse; para el mundo militar la homogeneidad es importante para un mejor control y conocimiento del recurso tropa, pero la sociedad civil requiere diversidad para enriquecerse, etc. Chile necesita recuperar y divulgar a personajes civiles que comuniquen valores civiles como la tolerancia, la diversidad, el respeto mutuo para construir un pa\u00eds diferente, mejor.<\/p><p><b>Edmundo Paz Sold\u00e1n:\u00a0<\/b><strong>No te escondes y haces una historia con tesis, en la que, por ejemplo, atacas a O'Higgins y Alessandri o muestras los abusos en la isla de Pascua y en Chilo\u00e9, y dices cosas radicales como que el ej\u00e9rcito chileno mat\u00f3 m\u00e1s chilenos que extranjeros. En el espectro ideol\u00f3gico tu proyecto es de izquierda: por ejemplo, en\u00a0<em><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/audiolibros-de-historia-y-biografias\/225546-rebelion-9789562626026\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Rebeli\u00f3n<\/a><\/span><\/em> sugieres que la dictadura de Pinochet intent\u00f3 cambiar el esp\u00edritu comunitario del chileno por uno individualista, y que ese neoliberalismo respira en la Constituci\u00f3n. \u00bfCrees que tus libros pueden entenderse como m\u00fasica de fondo del estallido social?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Jorge Baradit:<\/strong> <em><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/biografias\/225541-heroes-9789562625883\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">H\u00e9roes 1<\/a><\/span><\/em> sali\u00f3 en septiembre de 2019, planteando que deb\u00edamos cuestionarnos el pante\u00f3n de h\u00e9roes, derribar ciertas figuras y levantar otras. Un mes despu\u00e9s, la gente estaba literalmente derribando estatuas de representantes de la oligarqu\u00eda pol\u00edtico-militar. No lo veo como causalidad, sino como dos manifestaciones del mismo sentir popular de mi pa\u00eds. Si de algo me siento orgulloso no es de provocar nada, sino de haber acompa\u00f1ado el proceso hablando en armon\u00eda y coherencia con lo que le ocurr\u00eda a mi pueblo. El pueblo de Chile hab\u00eda sido anestesiado con la promesa de que alg\u00fan d\u00eda se convertir\u00edan en millonarios si segu\u00edan corriendo en la ruedita de h\u00e1mster que alimentaba al modelo. Hab\u00eda olvidado la gran lucha com\u00fan del siglo XX por democratizar nuestra democracia y se hab\u00eda volcado en la b\u00fasqueda del bienestar individual. Al desfondarse el modelo neoliberal alrededor de 2008, el proceso de abrir los ojos tom\u00f3 una d\u00e9cada de espasmos sucesivos antes del gran terremoto. Este suceso tect\u00f3nico tiene un valor m\u00e1s all\u00e1 de la b\u00fasqueda de un cambio de receta para la sociedad: es el retorno del gran pueblo de Chile y su proyecto colectivo despu\u00e9s de un par\u00e9ntesis neoliberal de cuarenta a\u00f1os. Este proceso est\u00e1 botando al basurero de nuestra historia el experimento de Pinochet de convertirnos en algo que nunca fuimos: una sociedad de individuos no relacionados que buscaban el bienestar personal en desmedro de sus pares si era necesario, o sea, la ley de la selva. Los chilenos somos hist\u00f3ricamente solidarios, la reciprocidad es importante en nuestra cultura y esos conceptos regresaron con toda la fuerza de la cultura que segu\u00eda latiendo por debajo.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"45\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"du633jn\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abPor debajo de la costra republicana racional seguimos siendo animales temerosos de los rel\u00e1mpagos; ignorar eso es perderse un enorme pedazo de la torta humana. Intentar entender al Tercer Reich sin su dimensi\u00f3n pagana es no entenderlo, por ejemplo\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"tv7gmej\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><b>Edmundo Paz Sold\u00e1n:\u00a0<\/b><strong>Algunas de tus historias tienen que ver con brujos, hechizos, grupos iluministas. \u00bfPor qu\u00e9 crees que esa historia\u00a0\u00abocultista\u00bb no se cuenta como parte de la historia de Chile?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Jorge Baradit:<\/strong> Son resabios de prejuicios ilustrados. Por debajo de la costra republicana racional seguimos siendo animales temerosos de los rel\u00e1mpagos; ignorar eso es perderse un enorme pedazo de la torta humana. Intentar entender al Tercer Reich sin su dimensi\u00f3n pagana es no entenderlo, por ejemplo.<\/p><p><b>Edmundo Paz Sold\u00e1n:\u00a0<\/b><strong>\u00bfTe animar\u00edas a salir de Chile y escribir una historia secreta de Am\u00e9rica Latina?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Jorge Baradit:<\/strong> Estoy en eso.<br \/><br \/><br \/><br \/><strong>OTROS CONTENIDOS DE INTER\u00c9S:<\/strong><\/p><ul style=\\\"list-style-type: disc;\\\"><li><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/entrevista-chico-buarque-fito-paez\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Chico Buarque por Fito P\u00e1ez: bienvenidos al siglo XXI<\/a><\/span><\/li><li><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/entrevista-Cesar-Aira-Alan-Pauls\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">C\u00e9sar Aira: condenado a vivir ah\u00ed<\/a><\/span><\/li><li><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/el-papa-francisco-a-las-neurosis-hay-que-cebarles-mate\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">El papa Francisco: \u00abA las neurosis hay que cebarles 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20 minutos

LENGUA a partir de ilustraciones de Nelson Dániel.

A fines de 2007, en la feria del libro de Santiago, un amigo me regaló un ejemplar de Ygdrasil, la primera novela de Jorge Baradit (Valparaíso, 1969). La novela me interesó mucho por su intento de hacer una ciencia ficción vernácula, mezclando las nuevas tecnologías con elementos de los pueblos originarios del continente (chamanes, imbunches): en palabras del mismo Baradit, un «ciberchamanismo». Poco después conocí a Jorge en un congreso de ficción «extraña» latinoamericana en Santiago; los medios lo veían como parte de un grupo emergente de escritores chilenos —que incluía a Mike Wilson, Álvaro Bisama y Francisco Ortega— que experimentaba con géneros populares (el horror, el fantástico, la ciencia ficción, la historieta) para narrar el desestabilizador presente chileno. En sus ponencias, Jorge entendía su obra como una intervención política; era para otros esa cosa superficial de ver a la ciencia ficción como un simple pasatiempo que se superaba con la edad, un entretenimiento escapista para las masas.

Casi diez años después me encontré con Baradit en un congreso en Buenos Aires y me regaló Historia secreta de Chile 2. Al entregarme el libro con una portada provocativa —O'Higgins con los icónicos anteojos oscuros de Pinochet— me dijo que, si bien utilizaba elementos de la ficción narrativa, se trataba de un proyecto de divulgación de la historia chilena («Me siento más bien un investigador del alma de mi país»). Lo leí salteado —el formato invitaba a ello— y recordé cómo, de niño, mientras recibía una formación didáctica de la historia boliviana en las clases y en las horas cívicas del colegio, había aprendido mucho de la historia boliviana a través de las leyendas y tradiciones que circulaban en libros y revistas de corte popular. Del libro de Baradit me impactaron sobre todo las secciones dedicadas a selk'nam cazados y enviados a Europa a fines del siglo XIX («El Estado chileno autorizó zoológicos humanos») y a la Recta Provincia («El Estado chileno persiguió brujos en Chiloé»): no tenía idea de que en el sur chileno se había cuajado alguna vez una rebelión liderada por brujos (había leído El obsceno pájaro de la noche y sabía de imbunches y otras tradiciones de Chiloé, pero esto era diferente).

Para iniciarse

Poco después me enteré de la controversia por esos libros entre los historiadores chilenos y de su éxito comercial. Cuatro años más tarde y con siete libros publicados de la misma familia —tres de Historia secreta, dos de Héroes, uno sobre los años de Pinochet (La dictadura) y uno más personal sobre el estallido social de 2019 (Rebelión)—, a los que se añade una exitosa serie televisiva en Chilevisión (diez capítulos hasta ahora), la polémica sobre los usos de la historia en Baradit no ha desaparecido: mientras Cristina Moyano, directora del Departamento de Historia de la Universidad de Chile, dice que su trama narrativa «reduce la complejidad de los procesos históricos… la dinámica argumentativa que usa es muy simplificadora», Cristian Castro, director de la Escuela de Historia de la Universidad Diego Portales, señala que «lo que hace lo hace bien, porque acerca a la gente a la historia… Baradit se hace cargo de un nicho, que en otros lados se denomina historia narrativa y que en Chile no había prendido demasiado». Al respecto, Baradit dice: «Tengo claro que hago de puente entre la gente común y contenidos históricos más complejos. Cuando me piden que mi trabajo sea de tal o cual manera, no entienden que están llevando este esfuerzo hacia el lugar alejado donde se vuelve inalcanzable para las personas comunes. No se trata de que ellos se vulgaricen o que yo me vuelva más académico, sino que funcionemos por carriles complementarios». Baradit menciona a historiadores con los que dialoga su obra (Gabriel Salazar, Sergio Grez Toso, Julio Pinto, María Angélica Illanes, del movimiento de la Nueva Historia chilena, y un precursor de aquella, Luis Vitale), «que buscan la interpretación de la historia "desde abajo y desde adentro", como dice el profesor Salazar».

La recepción entre los lectores demuestra que la historia narrativa de Baradit se ha convertido en un fenómeno cultural: con 400.000 ejemplares vendidos, podría decirse que las nuevas generaciones de chilenos están aprendiendo de la historia a través de sus libros. Es un salto impresionante, si uno piensa que Baradit dice que el disparador de su proyecto es haberse encontrado de adolescente con el disco de Quilapayún Cantata de la escuela Santa María de Iquique, compuesta por Luis Advis: «En ella se relata la masacre de obreros del salitre ocurrida en 1907, que postula a ser la masacre más grande del siglo XX en tiempos de paz. Durante unos días pensé que se trataba de un hecho de ficción hasta que me explicaron que había ocurrido realmente. Me sorprendí de que un hecho tan gravoso no se enseñara en las escuelas».

Así, esa historia que no se enseña en las escuelas es la argamasa que solidifica el proyecto histórico más popular de Chile. Consciente de su alcance en un momento complejo para el país, en plena discusión sobre la envergadura de la reforma constitucional, Baradit ha decidido seguir poniendo entre paréntesis su trabajo como novelista para asumir su «responsabilidad civil histórica» y ahondar en la Historia secreta: «El primer libro fue escrito con soltura y algunas licencias. A partir del segundo esas licencias desaparecieron y he seguido un camino de creciente cuidado para entregar un texto que siempre va a ser menos profundo que un paper académico, pero no menos ajustado a las fuentes, que es el único cable a tierra que tiene la historia». 

«El principal distribuidor de la historia patria, el Estado, no enseña Historia realmente, sino que imparte una especie de curso de inducción al orgullo nacional. Forma pequeños patrioteros que deben sentirse superiores a sus vecinos para que en un momento dado puedan matarlos si el Estado lo requiere».
 

Edmundo Paz Soldán: ¿Cómo definirías tu relación con la historia?

Jorge Baradit: Hay una cuestión emocional en lo que hago que usualmente no es parte de la labor de un historiador. Siento la necesidad basal, como narrador, de hacer sentir al otro las cosas que quiero compartir y eso implica no solamente transmitir datos y procesos, sino poner en el lugar a la persona, oler la pólvora, sentir el amor o la venganza, la furia del postergado, cuestiones humanas definitorias de las que la historia está llena, pero que aún no encuentran su lugar en la academia, cuestiones imprescindibles para comprender y abrazar procesos o momentos. Meterle sangre, endorfinas, asco y amor, lo que permite entender y vincularse mejor al fenómeno. Todo esto sin desvincularme de la fuente, el dato, la rigurosidad en la cita y el apego al archivo. No hago novela histórica, hago narrativa de la historia.

Edmundo Paz Soldán: Hayden White decía que los historiadores usaban tramas literarias y argumentos formales para entramar sus historias, y discutía la misma noción de una historia objetiva. Tú hablas de la historia como un cuento y de la conexión de la literatura con la historia (echando mano a la emoción para sumergir al lector en la historia). Entonces ¿la historia no es la del que más respeta los hechos, sino la del que mejor los conecta emocionalmente para el lector?

Jorge Baradit: El hombre siempre está eligiendo qué contar y qué no del evento en el que está inmerso para convertirlo en algo medianamente coherente, siente la compulsión de darle sentido a lo vivido, pero es una línea de eventos escogidos, no la realidad en sí. La historia, como disciplina, se ha inclinado por un criterio científico para buscar algo parecido a la objetividad en su intento por llegar a consensos sobre el pasado y construir un relato común libre de las subjetividades, para construir comunidad en torno a él, entre otras cosas, de nuevo, para administrarlo y explicarse. Desgraciadamente, ese objetivo carga con una fatalidad: al no haber objeto de estudio presente —los hechos se esfuman a medida que ocurren— es imposible hacer ciencia con él, y ella termina siendo un criterio de orden ético, es decir, hay un compromiso del historiador con la verdad —en este caso, los vestigios de ella: fuentes, fotografías, crónicas, objetos, etc.—, pero una imposibilidad implícita de alcanzarla. Esto abre la puerta a las interpretaciones: ¿qué me interesa de todo aquello como divulgador histórico? Divulgar una historia que le haga sentido al 80 % de mi país, acostumbrado a consumir un relato en el que no aparece, uno donde es espectador de los hechos de otras personas, de una élite que parece estar constituida por gente con uniformes o fracs que construye la historia y donde él es solo comparsa. Mostrarle que existe un punto de vista de la mayoría donde los hechos se interpretan diferente, donde él ha sido protagonista, donde los personajes notables son otros y el país se ve completamente diferente. En Chile se llama «historia social», es un fenómeno relativamente nuevo y divulgarla me pone en tela de juicio por cuestionar la historia oficial que distribuye el Estado o el establishment de la historia, que la utiliza como herramienta de poder. Conocer ese punto de vista «desde abajo» ha empoderado a la ciudadanía, mostrándole que son protagonistas de los procesos históricos tanto como cualquier general o presidente de la república, que tienen procesos y objetivos propios, héroes propios que se parecen a ellos y a sus sueños.

«Los cuentos de hadas de la historia escolar no serían problema si se reemplazaran, en estadios más avanzados de la educación, por relatos más maduros y críticos. Pero ello no ocurre y la gente se muere gritando contra los vecinos y amando a los uniformados, jurando que esos cuentos de hadas de su infancia son el alma nacional. Mi trabajo tiene que ver con romperle sus sueños de infancia a gente que termina odiándote por ello». 

Edmundo Paz Soldán: Entonces ¿te parece que la ficción tiene un lugar en la escritura de la historia?

Jorge Baradit: La historia es ficción con un pie forzado. Me recuerda el ejercicio que hizo Michael Crichton en Jurassic Park, cuando toma restos de ADN de dinosaurio y los monta sobre el ADN de reptiles actuales para intentar replicar a un tiranosaurio. La historia nace con una fatalidad insuperable —hasta que inventemos una máquina del tiempo: el pasado es inalcanzable y hay que montar sus fragmentos sobre nuestros paradigmas, ideas preconcebidas inevitables, mirarlo a través de tres o cuatro mecanismos espurios, intentar avizorar algo entre la niebla y el ruido de señales mal sintonizadas y certezas que se desvanecen a la velocidad de un minuto por minuto.

Edmundo Paz Soldán: ¿Qué piensas de la historia que se enseña en los colegios de Chile?

Jorge Baradit: El principal distribuidor de la historia patria, el Estado, no enseña Historia realmente, sino que imparte una especie de curso de inducción al orgullo nacional. Introducir a niños al círculo de pertenencia nacional a través de relatos heroicos para avivar lo propio, además de instalar ciertos valores y conductas deseables en el ciudadano, por ejemplo, lo maravilloso que es matarse por la patria. La escuela no enseña Historia, forma pequeños patrioteros que deben sentirse superiores a sus vecinos para que en un momento dado puedan matarlos si el Estado lo requiere. Cuentos de hadas que no serían problema si se reemplazaran, en estadios más avanzados de la educación, por relatos más maduros y críticos, pero ello no ocurre y la gente se muere gritando contra los vecinos y amando a los uniformados, jurando que esos cuentos de hadas de su infancia son el alma nacional. Mi trabajo también tiene que ver con romperle sus sueños de infancia a gente que termina odiándote por ello. Mi interés después de seis libros sigue ahí, en proponer una nueva mirada a diferentes procesos históricos que ayuden a interpretar el presente. No son proyectos inocentes, tienen punto de vista, el de los trabajadores, el de la mayoría, y tiene horizonte definido: ayudarlos a posicionarse como agentes históricos capaces de modificar su realidad. A saber, quiénes fueron, para que sepan quiénes son y quiénes quieren ser en el futuro.

«Según un levantamiento realizado por el artista visual chileno Mauricio Muñoz, el 80 % de las estatuas públicas santiaguinas son a militares. No tengo nada contra ellos, pero los valores militares no son iguales a los civiles. Para un militar es fundamental la obediencia ciega; la sociedad civil requiere discrepancia y crítica para desarrollarse, por ejemplo. Chile necesita recuperar y divulgar a personajes civiles que comuniquen valores civiles como la tolerancia, la diversidad, el respeto mutuo para construir un país diferente, mejor».

Edmundo Paz Soldán: Hablas de una historia escrita por los de abajo, en oposición a una historia «oficial» que privilegia aspectos gloriosos de los grandes hombres. Si bien hay un tipo de historia que desdeña esa vieja idea de los grandes hombres como motores de la historia y se concentra más bien en contar la vida cotidiana, tú sigues apostando por esos grandes hombres (y mujeres): tienes incluso una serie llamada Héroes. ¿No es esa una mirada un poco desfasada de cómo se construye la historia? Porque en tu proyecto no se trata de que no haya estatuas, sino de que las estatuas sean otras, ¿no? 

Jorge Baradit: La idea del «héroe» como motor de la historia es efectivamente un lastre decimonónico en la manera de ver la historia. En el caso de Héroes 1 y Héroes 2, utilizo la figura, pero a la luz de otra definición: el héroe como la persona excepcional capaz de convocar y canalizar a la multitud, la persona que reúne valores que representan cuestiones que se quieren realzar y que son relevantes para las personas. No son mesías iluminados, son más bien puntas de lanza que no son nada sin el brazo y el cuerpo social que las arroja. Pero además me interesan los héroes desde su dimensión pedagógica. En el caso de mi país, me parece que hay necesidad de profundo cambio en los valores que se promueven. Por algún misterio, se ha instalado, durante el par de cientos de años que tenemos como república, que nuestros militares son los guardianes de los valores nacionales. En Estados Unidos, por ejemplo, a pesar de que George Washington fue un militar de tomo y lomo, en los billetes aparece vestido de civil, como en la mayoría de las representaciones pictóricas relacionadas a su figura. Lo mismo todos los padres fundadores. Sin embargo, en Chile, se insiste en mostrar en todas las representaciones de nuestros libertadores su dimensión militar. Bernardo O'Higgins era un hacendado, nunca tuvo instrucción militar; Manuel Rodríguez era abogado y, sin embargo, en todos los libros de texto y representaciones aparecen uniformados y en funciones bélicas. Según un levantamiento realizado por Mauricio Muñoz, un artista visual chileno, el 80 % de las estatuas públicas santiaguinas son a militares. No tengo nada contra ellos, pero los valores militares no son iguales a los civiles. Para un militar es fundamental la obediencia ciega, la sociedad civil requiere discrepancia y crítica para desarrollarse; para el mundo militar la homogeneidad es importante para un mejor control y conocimiento del recurso tropa, pero la sociedad civil requiere diversidad para enriquecerse, etc. Chile necesita recuperar y divulgar a personajes civiles que comuniquen valores civiles como la tolerancia, la diversidad, el respeto mutuo para construir un país diferente, mejor.

Edmundo Paz Soldán: No te escondes y haces una historia con tesis, en la que, por ejemplo, atacas a O'Higgins y Alessandri o muestras los abusos en la isla de Pascua y en Chiloé, y dices cosas radicales como que el ejército chileno mató más chilenos que extranjeros. En el espectro ideológico tu proyecto es de izquierda: por ejemplo, en Rebelión sugieres que la dictadura de Pinochet intentó cambiar el espíritu comunitario del chileno por uno individualista, y que ese neoliberalismo respira en la Constitución. ¿Crees que tus libros pueden entenderse como música de fondo del estallido social? 

Jorge Baradit: Héroes 1 salió en septiembre de 2019, planteando que debíamos cuestionarnos el panteón de héroes, derribar ciertas figuras y levantar otras. Un mes después, la gente estaba literalmente derribando estatuas de representantes de la oligarquía político-militar. No lo veo como causalidad, sino como dos manifestaciones del mismo sentir popular de mi país. Si de algo me siento orgulloso no es de provocar nada, sino de haber acompañado el proceso hablando en armonía y coherencia con lo que le ocurría a mi pueblo. El pueblo de Chile había sido anestesiado con la promesa de que algún día se convertirían en millonarios si seguían corriendo en la ruedita de hámster que alimentaba al modelo. Había olvidado la gran lucha común del siglo XX por democratizar nuestra democracia y se había volcado en la búsqueda del bienestar individual. Al desfondarse el modelo neoliberal alrededor de 2008, el proceso de abrir los ojos tomó una década de espasmos sucesivos antes del gran terremoto. Este suceso tectónico tiene un valor más allá de la búsqueda de un cambio de receta para la sociedad: es el retorno del gran pueblo de Chile y su proyecto colectivo después de un paréntesis neoliberal de cuarenta años. Este proceso está botando al basurero de nuestra historia el experimento de Pinochet de convertirnos en algo que nunca fuimos: una sociedad de individuos no relacionados que buscaban el bienestar personal en desmedro de sus pares si era necesario, o sea, la ley de la selva. Los chilenos somos históricamente solidarios, la reciprocidad es importante en nuestra cultura y esos conceptos regresaron con toda la fuerza de la cultura que seguía latiendo por debajo.

«Por debajo de la costra republicana racional seguimos siendo animales temerosos de los relámpagos; ignorar eso es perderse un enorme pedazo de la torta humana. Intentar entender al Tercer Reich sin su dimensión pagana es no entenderlo, por ejemplo».

Edmundo Paz Soldán: Algunas de tus historias tienen que ver con brujos, hechizos, grupos iluministas. ¿Por qué crees que esa historia «ocultista» no se cuenta como parte de la historia de Chile? 

Jorge Baradit: Son resabios de prejuicios ilustrados. Por debajo de la costra republicana racional seguimos siendo animales temerosos de los relámpagos; ignorar eso es perderse un enorme pedazo de la torta humana. Intentar entender al Tercer Reich sin su dimensión pagana es no entenderlo, por ejemplo.

Edmundo Paz Soldán: ¿Te animarías a salir de Chile y escribir una historia secreta de América Latina?

Jorge Baradit: Estoy en eso.



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