Entrevistas

Chuck Palahniuk y la saga de «Fight Club»: «Las pesadillas son una buena señal»

A 25 años de su publicación original, «El club de la lucha» («El club de la pelea» en Latinoamérica) es un referente imprescindible para todos aquellos que deseen indagar en la cara B de la cultura contemporánea. Pero además, desde entonces ha revestido a su autor de un poder visionario que ratifica libro tras libro. Con el coraje de revisitar su propio éxito, Chuck Palahniuk no sólo aceptó la adaptación a novela gráfica de su novela icónica, sino que también decidió que esa adaptación expandiera la trama del libro. A propósito de «El club de la pelea 3», el escritor mexicano Julián Herbert lo entrevistó en exclusiva para LENGUA. En este diálogo, Palahniuk habla de los originales mecanismos narrativos que eligió para el cómic, de sus esfuerzos por alejarse de la política, de los peligros artísticos que conlleva internet y de ese universo (tan parecido a éste) que lo hizo famoso y en el que los extenuados por el sistema se consuelan con la violencia.

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Pero adem\u00e1s, desde entonces ha revestido a su autor de un poder visionario que ratifica libro tras libro. Con el coraje de revisitar su propio \u00e9xito, Chuck Palahniuk no s\u00f3lo acept\u00f3 la adaptaci\u00f3n a novela gr\u00e1fica de su novela ic\u00f3nica, sino que tambi\u00e9n decidi\u00f3 que esa adaptaci\u00f3n expandiera la trama del libro. A prop\u00f3sito de \u00abEl club de la pelea 3\u00bb, el escritor mexicano Juli\u00e1n Herbert lo entrevist\u00f3 en exclusiva para LENGUA. 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de comprar sus libros durante una temporada. No fue culpa suya: m\u00e1s bien \u2014pero eso lo not\u00e9 despu\u00e9s\u2014 me hart\u00e9 de la caricatura barata y bravucona que practican algunos de sus ep\u00edgonos. Volv\u00ed a <a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/mx\/1034-chuck-palahniuk\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\">Chuck Palahniuk<\/span><\/a> porque lo considero un visionario. <strong>Fue gozoso reencontrarlo a trav\u00e9s de dos territorios que amo<\/strong>: la novela gr\u00e1fica y el universo de <em>Fight Club<\/em>. Volv\u00ed al relato original y luego le\u00ed las dos novelas gr\u00e1ficas (<em>El club de la pelea 2<\/em> y<em> El club de la pelea 3<\/em>, ambas dibujadas por Cameron Stewart y publicadas en espa\u00f1ol por <a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/mx\/115872-reservoir-books\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\">Reservoir Books<\/span><\/a>) de un tir\u00f3n, intentando percibir a los personajes como si provinieran de un solo impulso narrativo. M\u00e1s tarde redact\u00e9 trece preguntas y las envi\u00e9 al autor traducidas al ingl\u00e9s. Siempre, desde que formul\u00e9 la entrevista en mi cabeza (e incluso en el encabezado del mensaje que le envi\u00e9: \u00abDear Mr. Palahniuk\u00bb), me imaginaba habl\u00e1ndole de \u00abusted\u00bb. Cuando llegaron sus respuestas a vuelta de correo, ven\u00edan con esta breve nota: \u00ab<em>Such good questions. And so many. Below I've done my best and given a lot of thought to each. chuck<\/em>\u00bb. El nombre de pila en min\u00fasculas me hizo notar que, para que la entrevista fluyera mejor en espa\u00f1ol, ten\u00eda que tutear a Chuck. Es un detalle menor. 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Herbert: En<em> <\/em><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/mx\/comic\/42101-el-club-de-la-pelea-2-novela-grafica-9786073144421\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">El club de la pelea 2<\/a><\/em><\/span>, el psiquiatra de Balthazar dice: \u00abLos seres humanos no cultivamos ideas. Al contrario: las ideas nos cultivan a nosotros\u00bb. \u00bfQu\u00e9 importancia concedes a las ideolog\u00edas del siglo XX en la mentalidad de los personajes de las tres entregas de <em>El club de la pelea<\/em>, m\u00e1s all\u00e1 de su evidente intenci\u00f3n par\u00f3dica? \u00bfC\u00f3mo crees que dialogan las visiones megal\u00f3manas de apocalipsis ideadas por Tyler Durden con <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/harari-sandel\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">las mentalidades de la \u00e9poca de Trump<\/a><\/span>?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Chuck Palahniuk:<\/strong> Intento ignorar lo m\u00e1s posible la pol\u00edtica moderna y evitar el compromiso directo con la ideolog\u00eda. Atacar o apoyar una ideolog\u00eda le da poder; es una postura que, creo, Michel Foucault adopt\u00f3. Mi objetivo siempre es mostrar a un personaje, a un individuo, ganando poder y finalmente encontrando comunidad con una persona o un grupo. Cosas muy b\u00e1sicas. Todos mis personajes sacrifican sus vidas peque\u00f1as y seguras para encontrar un v\u00ednculo con los otros. Me parece arriesgado malgastar mi vida en la b\u00fasqueda de una nueva visi\u00f3n o ideolog\u00eda. Me niego a perder un momento de mi atenci\u00f3n en la pol\u00edtica mohosa y ego\u00edsta de nuestros supuestos l\u00edderes.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"b63anch\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Juli\u00e1n Herbert: Quiero indagar sobre la focalizaci\u00f3n. La novela original es contada en primera persona, mientras que las dos novelas gr\u00e1ficas trasladan paulatinamente la voz a una tercera persona que incurre en pasajes de metaficci\u00f3n, particularmente en <em>El club de la pelea 2<\/em>. \u00bfQu\u00e9 tan complejo o natural te pareci\u00f3 ese tr\u00e1nsito, y qu\u00e9 fue lo m\u00e1s divertido y lo menos divertido de emprenderlo?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Chuck Palahniuk:<\/strong> La novela original fue escrita en primera persona porque en ese tiempo yo estaba estudiando la t\u00e9cnica del minimalismo. Para los minimalistas, el punto de vista en primera persona tiene m\u00e1s autoridad. Los mejores escritores de ese estilo, desde Amy Hempel hasta Mark Richard, han hecho lo mejor de su obra en primera persona.\u00a0<em>El club de la pelea 2 <\/em>actu\u00f3 como una transici\u00f3n, revel\u00e1ndome eventualmente a m\u00ed como el narrador en primera persona, pero cancelando mi autoridad en \u00faltima instancia y entregando la historia a los personajes a trav\u00e9s de mi asesinato.<em>\u00a0 <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/mx\/comic\/235516-el-club-de-la-lucha-3\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">El club de la pelea 3<\/a><\/span><\/em>\u00a0\u2014como el t\u00edtulo sugiere\u2014 se mueve s\u00f3lidamente hacia la narraci\u00f3n en tercera persona. El aspecto menos divertido fue ser criticado por escribir tanto en primera persona. Que lo hab\u00eda hecho, s\u00ed, debido a mi entrenamiento. En realidad, la tendencia a escribir en forma minimalista fue m\u00e1s o menos arruinada por un solo ensayo del cr\u00edtico Sven Birkerts, quien se quej\u00f3 de que ese estilo sobrexplotaba la primera persona. Lo m\u00e1s divertido fue demostrar que la narraci\u00f3n en tercera persona no ten\u00eda que ser la t\u00edpica de manual, con esa dicci\u00f3n y sintaxis perfectas que me disgusta en tanta ficci\u00f3n cl\u00e1sica.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"45\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"ja0z5ia\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abTodos mis personajes sacrifican sus vidas peque\u00f1as y seguras para encontrar un v\u00ednculo con los otros. Me parece arriesgado malgastar mi vida en la b\u00fasqueda de una nueva visi\u00f3n o ideolog\u00eda. Me niego a perder un momento de mi atenci\u00f3n en la pol\u00edtica mohosa y ego\u00edsta de nuestros supuestos l\u00edderes\u00bb.\u00a0<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"9tz7ikc\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Juli\u00e1n Herbert: Uno de los personajes que m\u00e1s me gustan de las dos novelas gr\u00e1ficas es Chloe. \u00bfQu\u00e9 signific\u00f3 para ti ampliar su arco narrativo? \u00bfEs posible interpretarla como contraparte femenina de Robert Paulson?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Chuck Palahniuk:<\/strong> \u00bfA poco no es maravillosa Chloe?\u00a0 Su personaje fluct\u00faa entre el <em>pathos<\/em> tr\u00e1gico extremo y la sensualidad orgi\u00e1stica extrema. S\u00ed: ella es el contrapunto al obediente Robert Paulson. Ambos son imposibles de matar, solo que Chloe toma acci\u00f3n dram\u00e1tica, mientras que Big Bob no tiene un solo pensamiento en la cabeza y solo sigue instrucciones. No hab\u00eda planeado incluir a ninguno de estos personajes en las novelas gr\u00e1ficas, pero \u2014en un afortunado giro de los acontecimientos\u2014 los lectores exigieron que ambos regresaran. A pesar de que Chloe y Bob interpretaron peque\u00f1os papeles en el libro original, la gente realmente los amaba.\u00a0 \u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juli\u00e1n Herbert:<\/strong> <strong>En <em>El club de la pelea 3<\/em> nos encontramos con un marcado \u00e9nfasis en los personajes femeninos, particularmente en Marla y Chloe. \u00bfConsideras que la cuarta ola del feminismo ha impactado de alg\u00fan modo tu exploraci\u00f3n de la psique humana?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Chuck Palahniuk:<\/strong> Como mencion\u00e9, trato de mantenerme alejado de las ideolog\u00edas.\u00a0 Para m\u00ed los personajes no tienen raza ni g\u00e9nero.\u00a0 Al menos mientras los escribo. Tampoco presiono al artista [Cameron Stewart] para que represente a los personajes de una manera espec\u00edfica. Dicho esto, me encanta desdibujar las l\u00edneas de g\u00e9nero. Big Bob tiene pechos. Marla Singer asiste a grupos de apoyo para personas con c\u00e1ncer testicular. Balthazar es sometido a una cirug\u00eda de reasignaci\u00f3n de g\u00e9nero para ser transformado de macho beta a macho alfa.<\/p><p><strong>Juli\u00e1n Herbert: \u00bfQu\u00e9 te pareci\u00f3 la experiencia de escribir guion de c\u00f3mic?\u00a0 \u00bfTuviste que adaptar mucho el temperamento o el ritmo de tu prosa?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Chuck Palahniuk:<\/strong> Mi mayor desaf\u00edo fue la famosa \u00abrevelaci\u00f3n del cambio de p\u00e1gina\u00bb. En teor\u00eda, la \u00fanica vez que puedes sorprender al lector es cuando ella\/\u00e9l le da vuelta a una p\u00e1gina. Por lo tanto, cada p\u00e1gina del lado derecho debe terminar con el planteamiento de una trama, y cada p\u00e1gina del lado izquierdo debe comenzar con una revelaci\u00f3n.\u00a0 Eso significa que un n\u00famero de 25 p\u00e1ginas debe contener doce o trece momentos clim\u00e1ticos.\u00a0Es un ritmo asesino para cualquier escritor, ninguna novela podr\u00eda hacer eso, pero el reto me volvi\u00f3 m\u00e1s fuerte a la hora de trazar tramas.<\/p><p><strong>Juli\u00e1n Herbert: H\u00e1blame de Cameron Stewart, ilustrador y coautor de<em> El club de la pelea 2<\/em> y <em>El club de la pelea 3<\/em>. \u00bfQu\u00e9 opinas de su estilo, y por qu\u00e9 te interes\u00f3 colaborar con \u00e9l?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Chuck Palahniuk:<\/strong> Al principio quer\u00eda trabajar con Cameron porque nadie m\u00e1s pod\u00eda comunicarse tan eficazmente con expresiones faciales, acciones y gestos. Detesto el di\u00e1logo, tanto en la escritura como en la lectura. Y demasiados c\u00f3mics est\u00e1n dominados por vastos globos de palabras que solo sirven para ofrecer ch\u00e1chara ingeniosa. No, odio tanto el di\u00e1logo que quer\u00eda que Cameron creara \u00abobjetos\u00bb fotorrealistas como p\u00e9talos de flores y palomitas de ma\u00edz que parecieran estar\u00a0\u00abencima\u00bb de la p\u00e1gina y bloquearan porciones de los discursos de los personajes. El trabajo de Cameron ha sido criticado por demasiado caricaturesco, pero \u00e9l tambi\u00e9n puede hacer trazos de estilo hiperrealista. Si te fijas, dibuj\u00f3 a los personajes principales (Marla, Tyler, etc.) de manera realista, en comparaci\u00f3n con los personajes secundarios: Chloe, el Ping\u00fcino y Big Bob. La habilidad de Cameron para desplazarse una y otra vez entre realismo y caricatura es una fortaleza con la que he jugado 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Sin embargo, s\u00ed fui con varios amigos escritores y les pregunt\u00e9 si quer\u00edan aparecer como villanos en <em>El club de la pelea 3<\/em>. Todos rechazaron la propuesta. Todav\u00eda me encanta escribir, reunirme con otros\u00a0autores y presentar nuestras obras entre todos. \u00daltimamente dirijo un taller de estudiantes, escritores de todas las edades que aprecian la reacci\u00f3n emocional de una audiencia en vivo.\u00a0Un taller as\u00ed es un campo de pruebas instant\u00e1neo para el trabajo, y puede prevenir que un escritor pierda a\u00f1os en una idea d\u00e9bil que no engancha a los lectores.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juli\u00e1n Herbert: Tanto <em>El club de la pelea 2<\/em> como <em>El club de la pelea 3<\/em> presentan una doble articulaci\u00f3n narrativa. En la primera, hay un discurso de metaficci\u00f3n que se desborda hacia afuera: hacia el espacio simb\u00f3lico donde nos encontramos los lectores. En <em>El club de la pelea 3<\/em>, el desbordamiento se produce a la inversa: los personajes cruzan umbrales dimensionales a trav\u00e9s de obras de arte y desembocan en una ficci\u00f3n hist\u00f3rico-dist\u00f3pica donde conviven las guerras napole\u00f3nicas y Hitler. \u00bfC\u00f3mo se complementan estos dos conceptos narrativos, y c\u00f3mo se relacionan a su vez con la no ficci\u00f3n?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Chuck Palahniuk:<\/strong> En mi opini\u00f3n, cada historia deber\u00eda tener tres \u00abrealidades\u00bb<em>.<\/em> En <em>El club de la pelea 2<\/em>, una de ellas era el mundo real de Marla, luego el mundo de los sue\u00f1os y, por \u00faltimo, el mundo meta, donde aparecieron mis compa\u00f1eras escritoras.\u00a0 En <em>El club de la pelea 3<\/em>, est\u00e1 el mundo real de Owen, luego el mundo surrealista creado por los marcos de fotos (un gui\u00f1o a Duchamp) y el mundo de dibujos animados de Marla y Balthazar. Toma en cuenta esto: la mayor parte de mi trabajo consiste en presentar ficci\u00f3n utilizando un dispositivo de no ficci\u00f3n. Usando un contexto de no ficci\u00f3n (la grabadora de cabina de vuelo en <em>Survivor<\/em> o la forma del diario en <em>Diary<\/em>) puedo prestar realismo y gravedad a historias que, de otra manera, parecer\u00edan demasiado rid\u00edculas. Una vez m\u00e1s, esto es un gui\u00f1o a Marcel Duchamp y su idea de que la galer\u00eda y el marco son lo que legitiman el \u00abarte\u00bb.<em>\u00a0<\/em>Debe haber un equilibrio entre el aspecto libre y creativo de narrar, por una parte, y lo disciplinado, lo contenido y lo formalizado de ese acto, por la otra.\u00a0 Libertad + Contenci\u00f3n = Tensi\u00f3n.<\/p><p><strong>Juli\u00e1n Herbert: En <em>El club de la pelea 3<\/em>, el disparador de la trama es una epidemia que se difunde mediante t\u00e9cnicas Amway para practicar el sexo. Me parece ir\u00f3nico que, justo cuando el libro se publicaba en ingl\u00e9s, a principios de 2020, el mundo haya tenido que ir en la direcci\u00f3n opuesta. H\u00e1blame del halo de nostalgia sexual que emana de tus personajes, especialmente en los divertidos pasajes de esa org\u00eda donde aparece Stephen Hawking.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Chuck Palahniuk:<\/strong> Hablemos de jugar. Por su naturaleza, el juego es consensual y en cierta medida estructurado, como con las reglas de un juego.\u00a0<em>El club de la pelea<\/em> funciona porque le da a la gente una forma segura y consensual de explorar la violencia. Como se\u00f1al\u00f3 Foucault, el sexo es tambi\u00e9n un m\u00e9todo consensual de explorar el poder y \u2014a veces\u2014 la violencia. Como cualquier buena terapia Gestalt, el sexo y la violencia \u2014de nuevo: estructurada y consensual\u2014 permiten a los seres humanos reconocer y resolver sus sentimientos m\u00e1s profundos. Como yo lo veo, una parte demasiado grande de nuestra cultura est\u00e1 consagrada a los aspectos \u00abnobles\u00bb de una persona, y yo estaba encantado al ver informes de que Hawking disfrutaba\u00a0pasando tiempo en clubes sexuales. No era solo un tipo brillante. Ten\u00eda un lado carnal, y no ten\u00eda miedo de actuar con base en esos impulsos.\u00a0 Dicho esto, espero que las cenizas de Einstein est\u00e9n ech\u00e1ndose un polvo con regularidad.<\/p><p><strong>Juli\u00e1n Herbert: Otra idea provocadora de <em>El club de la pelea 3<\/em> es un ox\u00edmoron: \u00abSaquear es a\u00f1adir contenido\u00bb. La frase se refiere a los expolios de obras de arte practicados por Napole\u00f3n y Hitler. Sin embargo, me parece una idea que dialoga tambi\u00e9n con internet y las redes sociales. \u00bfPodr\u00edas desarrollar esta met\u00e1fora desde el punto de vista de c\u00f3mo la informaci\u00f3n circula y es almacenada-a\u00f1adida-saqueada en el siglo XXI?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Chuck Palahniuk:<\/strong> Honestamente, gran parte de mi trabajo consiste en escuchar a la gente contar sus historias, luego cosechar las mejores y encontrar temas comunes que me permitan coser peque\u00f1as an\u00e9cdotas y convertirlas en otras m\u00e1s grandes. En esa medida, s\u00ed que he a\u00f1adido. Sin embargo, las an\u00e9cdotas que recojo no est\u00e1n autom\u00e1ticamente destinadas al mercado. Estoy preservando las cosas et\u00e9reas, como hace toda la gente. Hasta hace poco, solo los ricos y los patrocinados por clientes ricos pod\u00edan crear. Si internet destruye el valor de los actos creativos \u2014im\u00e1genes, m\u00fasica, historias, recetas\u2014 volveremos a un mundo donde solo los ricos crean la cultura. Debido a que no necesitan los ingresos de su trabajo creativo, los ricos ser\u00e1n nuestros escritores y artistas y solo van a representar su mundo.\u00a0 Volveremos a las pinturas de arist\u00f3cratas y a las sinfon\u00edas interpretadas para las religiones.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"14\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"44\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"1zk1uqf\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abHasta hace poco, s\u00f3lo los ricos y los patrocinados por clientes ricos pod\u00edan crear. Si internet destruye el valor de los actos creativos \u2014im\u00e1genes, m\u00fasica, historias, recetas\u2014 volveremos a un mundo donde solo los ricos crean la cultura. Como no necesitan los ingresos de su trabajo creativo, los ricos ser\u00e1n nuestros escritores y artistas y s\u00f3lo van a representar su mundo. Volveremos a las pinturas de arist\u00f3cratas y a las sinfon\u00edas interpretadas para las religiones\u00bb.\u00a0<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"6uoteeh\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Juli\u00e1n Herbert: El otro d\u00eda te escuch\u00e9 hablar del cerezo de Jerusal\u00e9n. Me encant\u00f3 el cuidado y el afecto con el que describiste esa planta. A veces tus personajes utilizan a los animales como met\u00e1foras de sus instintos, incluso hay un pasaje con <em>furry animals<\/em> en <em>El club de la pelea 3.<\/em> Percibo en tu escritura mucho jugueteo, transgresi\u00f3n y violencia respecto de la vida-no-humana. Pero percibo tambi\u00e9n, en todo eso, un inopinado trasfondo de ternura.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Chuck Palahniuk:<\/strong> Como yo veo la cultura, cada vez m\u00e1s personas consideran que los animales son las \u00faltimas v\u00edctimas reales. Las plantas y los animales no tienen ninguna agencia. En su mayor parte, viven en un mundo controlado por los humanos. Es aterrador, pero cada d\u00eda se incrementa el n\u00famero de personas que\u00a0piensan que hasta los ni\u00f1os son responsables de crear su propia miseria. Qu\u00e9 tan bien tratamos a los animales determina c\u00f3mo nos trataremos unos a otros. Mi esperanza es que podamos aumentar nuestra humanidad dando mejor cuidado a los no humanos.<\/p><p><strong>Juli\u00e1n Herbert: Le cont\u00e9 a una amiga que iba a entrevistarte. Me dijo: \u00abAmo a ese wey, me produce pesadillas\u00bb.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Chuck Palahniuk:<\/strong> Las pesadillas son una buena se\u00f1al. Demasiada de nuestra cultura se basa en confortar y adormecer a la gente. \u00bfPor qu\u00e9 la mayor parte de la gente lee libros? Para dormirse. Eso me entristece. Si puedo asustarte, o hacerte re\u00edr, o hacer que te sientas enfermo del est\u00f3mago, esa es la prueba de que hice mi trabajo. As\u00ed que gracias.<br \/><br \/><br \/><br \/><\/p><p><strong>OTROS CONTENIDOS DE INTER\u00c9S:<\/strong><\/p><ul style=\\\"list-style-type: circle;\\\"><li><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/david-quammen-contagio-federico-kukso\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">David Quammen: el hombre que escuch\u00f3 llegar a la covid-19<\/a><\/span><\/li><li><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/art-spiegelman-liniers\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Art Spiegelman: \u00abAuschwitz estaba en mi patio trasero: era mi casa\u00bb<\/a><\/span><\/li><li><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"Luis%20Jorge Boone y la gran pregunta de la literatura mexicana del siglo XXI\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Luis Jorge Boone y la gran pregunta de la literatura mexicana del siglo XXI<\/a><\/span><\/li><\/ul>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"14\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"44\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"3n6qb8w\",\"elType\":\"section\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_layout\":\"\",\"stretch_section\":\"section-stretched\",\"layout\":\"full_width\",\"content_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"gap\":\"default\",\"height\":\"default\",\"custom_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":400},\"column_position\":\"middle\",\"content_position\":\"\",\"structure\":\"10\",\"section_background\":\"\",\"background_background\":\"\",\"background_color\":\"\",\"background_color_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":0},\"background_color_b\":\"\",\"background_color_b_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"background_gradient_type\":\"linear\",\"background_gradient_angle\":{\"unit\":\"deg\",\"size\":180},\"background_gradient_position\":\"center 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15 minutos

Ilustración de Max Rompo.

Dejé de comprar sus libros durante una temporada. No fue culpa suya: más bien —pero eso lo noté después— me harté de la caricatura barata y bravucona que practican algunos de sus epígonos. Volví a Chuck Palahniuk porque lo considero un visionario. Fue gozoso reencontrarlo a través de dos territorios que amo: la novela gráfica y el universo de Fight Club. Volví al relato original y luego leí las dos novelas gráficas (El club de la pelea 2 y El club de la pelea 3, ambas dibujadas por Cameron Stewart y publicadas en español por Reservoir Books) de un tirón, intentando percibir a los personajes como si provinieran de un solo impulso narrativo. Más tarde redacté trece preguntas y las envié al autor traducidas al inglés. Siempre, desde que formulé la entrevista en mi cabeza (e incluso en el encabezado del mensaje que le envié: «Dear Mr. Palahniuk»), me imaginaba hablándole de «usted». Cuando llegaron sus respuestas a vuelta de correo, venían con esta breve nota: «Such good questions. And so many. Below I've done my best and given a lot of thought to each. chuck». El nombre de pila en minúsculas me hizo notar que, para que la entrevista fluyera mejor en español, tenía que tutear a Chuck. Es un detalle menor. Y, al mismo tiempo, no: la considero una sutil corrección estilística introducida por él. Mientras traducía sus respuestas, tuve la permanente sensación de estar tomándome un café con un extraordinario y generoso maestro del arte de la ficción. Supongo que es la fantasía paranoide de un hombre que pasa demasiadas horas diarias en sesiones de Zoom.

***

Julián Herbert: Cuando apareció El club de la pelea (El club de la lucha en España) se la situó como novela emblemática de la generación X. Noto en las dos novelas gráficas que amplían la saga una deliberada vocación por contradecir esa descripción, retratando a Tyler Durden como una suerte de arquetipo: una figura que ha vivido en la psique de los padres y los hijos de Balthazar y Marla y no solo en la de los protagonistas originales. ¿Cómo concibes tu trabajo desde este punto de vista intergeneracional?

Chuck Palahniuk: No pienso tanto en mi trabajo como algo representativo de una generación, sino más bien como algo representativo de una fase de la vida que es común a todas las generaciones.  En algún momento de la vida, cada generación se reconoce a sí misma como el resultado de todas las decisiones, acciones y energías humanas de la historia.  Y cada generación se da cuenta de que ella, también, morirá.  Frente a ambas realidades, ¿cómo es que una generación (ya sean los baby boomers, la z, los milenials) elige seguir adelante? ¿Como hijos perpetuos? ¿Como víctimas de la historia?... O como personas dignas de los sacrificios de sus antepasados y dispuestas a tomar decisiones audaces que inspirarán a las generaciones futuras.

Julián Herbert: En El club de la pelea 2, el psiquiatra de Balthazar dice: «Los seres humanos no cultivamos ideas. Al contrario: las ideas nos cultivan a nosotros». ¿Qué importancia concedes a las ideologías del siglo XX en la mentalidad de los personajes de las tres entregas de El club de la pelea, más allá de su evidente intención paródica? ¿Cómo crees que dialogan las visiones megalómanas de apocalipsis ideadas por Tyler Durden con las mentalidades de la época de Trump?

Chuck Palahniuk: Intento ignorar lo más posible la política moderna y evitar el compromiso directo con la ideología. Atacar o apoyar una ideología le da poder; es una postura que, creo, Michel Foucault adoptó. Mi objetivo siempre es mostrar a un personaje, a un individuo, ganando poder y finalmente encontrando comunidad con una persona o un grupo. Cosas muy básicas. Todos mis personajes sacrifican sus vidas pequeñas y seguras para encontrar un vínculo con los otros. Me parece arriesgado malgastar mi vida en la búsqueda de una nueva visión o ideología. Me niego a perder un momento de mi atención en la política mohosa y egoísta de nuestros supuestos líderes.

Julián Herbert: Quiero indagar sobre la focalización. La novela original es contada en primera persona, mientras que las dos novelas gráficas trasladan paulatinamente la voz a una tercera persona que incurre en pasajes de metaficción, particularmente en El club de la pelea 2. ¿Qué tan complejo o natural te pareció ese tránsito, y qué fue lo más divertido y lo menos divertido de emprenderlo?

Chuck Palahniuk: La novela original fue escrita en primera persona porque en ese tiempo yo estaba estudiando la técnica del minimalismo. Para los minimalistas, el punto de vista en primera persona tiene más autoridad. Los mejores escritores de ese estilo, desde Amy Hempel hasta Mark Richard, han hecho lo mejor de su obra en primera persona. El club de la pelea 2 actuó como una transición, revelándome eventualmente a mí como el narrador en primera persona, pero cancelando mi autoridad en última instancia y entregando la historia a los personajes a través de mi asesinato.  El club de la pelea 3 —como el título sugiere— se mueve sólidamente hacia la narración en tercera persona. El aspecto menos divertido fue ser criticado por escribir tanto en primera persona. Que lo había hecho, sí, debido a mi entrenamiento. En realidad, la tendencia a escribir en forma minimalista fue más o menos arruinada por un solo ensayo del crítico Sven Birkerts, quien se quejó de que ese estilo sobrexplotaba la primera persona. Lo más divertido fue demostrar que la narración en tercera persona no tenía que ser la típica de manual, con esa dicción y sintaxis perfectas que me disgusta en tanta ficción clásica.

«Todos mis personajes sacrifican sus vidas pequeñas y seguras para encontrar un vínculo con los otros. Me parece arriesgado malgastar mi vida en la búsqueda de una nueva visión o ideología. Me niego a perder un momento de mi atención en la política mohosa y egoísta de nuestros supuestos líderes». 

Julián Herbert: Uno de los personajes que más me gustan de las dos novelas gráficas es Chloe. ¿Qué significó para ti ampliar su arco narrativo? ¿Es posible interpretarla como contraparte femenina de Robert Paulson?

Chuck Palahniuk: ¿A poco no es maravillosa Chloe?  Su personaje fluctúa entre el pathos trágico extremo y la sensualidad orgiástica extrema. Sí: ella es el contrapunto al obediente Robert Paulson. Ambos son imposibles de matar, solo que Chloe toma acción dramática, mientras que Big Bob no tiene un solo pensamiento en la cabeza y solo sigue instrucciones. No había planeado incluir a ninguno de estos personajes en las novelas gráficas, pero —en un afortunado giro de los acontecimientos— los lectores exigieron que ambos regresaran. A pesar de que Chloe y Bob interpretaron pequeños papeles en el libro original, la gente realmente los amaba.   

Julián Herbert: En El club de la pelea 3 nos encontramos con un marcado énfasis en los personajes femeninos, particularmente en Marla y Chloe. ¿Consideras que la cuarta ola del feminismo ha impactado de algún modo tu exploración de la psique humana?

Chuck Palahniuk: Como mencioné, trato de mantenerme alejado de las ideologías.  Para mí los personajes no tienen raza ni género.  Al menos mientras los escribo. Tampoco presiono al artista [Cameron Stewart] para que represente a los personajes de una manera específica. Dicho esto, me encanta desdibujar las líneas de género. Big Bob tiene pechos. Marla Singer asiste a grupos de apoyo para personas con cáncer testicular. Balthazar es sometido a una cirugía de reasignación de género para ser transformado de macho beta a macho alfa.

Julián Herbert: ¿Qué te pareció la experiencia de escribir guion de cómic?  ¿Tuviste que adaptar mucho el temperamento o el ritmo de tu prosa?

Chuck Palahniuk: Mi mayor desafío fue la famosa «revelación del cambio de página». En teoría, la única vez que puedes sorprender al lector es cuando ella/él le da vuelta a una página. Por lo tanto, cada página del lado derecho debe terminar con el planteamiento de una trama, y cada página del lado izquierdo debe comenzar con una revelación.  Eso significa que un número de 25 páginas debe contener doce o trece momentos climáticos. Es un ritmo asesino para cualquier escritor, ninguna novela podría hacer eso, pero el reto me volvió más fuerte a la hora de trazar tramas.

Julián Herbert: Háblame de Cameron Stewart, ilustrador y coautor de El club de la pelea 2 y El club de la pelea 3. ¿Qué opinas de su estilo, y por qué te interesó colaborar con él?

Chuck Palahniuk: Al principio quería trabajar con Cameron porque nadie más podía comunicarse tan eficazmente con expresiones faciales, acciones y gestos. Detesto el diálogo, tanto en la escritura como en la lectura. Y demasiados cómics están dominados por vastos globos de palabras que solo sirven para ofrecer cháchara ingeniosa. No, odio tanto el diálogo que quería que Cameron creara «objetos» fotorrealistas como pétalos de flores y palomitas de maíz que parecieran estar «encima» de la página y bloquearan porciones de los discursos de los personajes. El trabajo de Cameron ha sido criticado por demasiado caricaturesco, pero él también puede hacer trazos de estilo hiperrealista. Si te fijas, dibujó a los personajes principales (Marla, Tyler, etc.) de manera realista, en comparación con los personajes secundarios: Chloe, el Pingüino y Big Bob. La habilidad de Cameron para desplazarse una y otra vez entre realismo y caricatura es una fortaleza con la que he jugado también.

«Una parte demasiado grande de nuestra cultura está consagrada a los aspectos «nobles» de una persona. Por eso me encantaba leer sobre que Hawking disfrutaba de pasar tiempo en clubes sexuales. No era sólo un tipo brillante. Tenía un lado carnal, y no tenía miedo de actuar con base en esos impulsos. Dicho esto, espero que a Einstein le sacudan las cenizas regularmente».

Julián Herbert: En El club de la pelea 2 vemos a las integrantes de un taller interviniendo, mediante pasajes de metaficción, en la historia que se nos cuenta. ¿Existió realmente esa práctica en el proceso argumental? ¿Persiste algo de ella en El club de la pelea 3? ¿Qué ventajas encuentras en el taller literario?

Chuck Palahniuk: Lamentablemente, el taller representado en El club de la pelea 2 terminó antes de que se escribiera el tercer libro de la serie. Sin embargo, sí fui con varios amigos escritores y les pregunté si querían aparecer como villanos en El club de la pelea 3. Todos rechazaron la propuesta. Todavía me encanta escribir, reunirme con otros autores y presentar nuestras obras entre todos. Últimamente dirijo un taller de estudiantes, escritores de todas las edades que aprecian la reacción emocional de una audiencia en vivo. Un taller así es un campo de pruebas instantáneo para el trabajo, y puede prevenir que un escritor pierda años en una idea débil que no engancha a los lectores.  

Julián Herbert: Tanto El club de la pelea 2 como El club de la pelea 3 presentan una doble articulación narrativa. En la primera, hay un discurso de metaficción que se desborda hacia afuera: hacia el espacio simbólico donde nos encontramos los lectores. En El club de la pelea 3, el desbordamiento se produce a la inversa: los personajes cruzan umbrales dimensionales a través de obras de arte y desembocan en una ficción histórico-distópica donde conviven las guerras napoleónicas y Hitler. ¿Cómo se complementan estos dos conceptos narrativos, y cómo se relacionan a su vez con la no ficción?

Chuck Palahniuk: En mi opinión, cada historia debería tener tres «realidades». En El club de la pelea 2, una de ellas era el mundo real de Marla, luego el mundo de los sueños y, por último, el mundo meta, donde aparecieron mis compañeras escritoras.  En El club de la pelea 3, está el mundo real de Owen, luego el mundo surrealista creado por los marcos de fotos (un guiño a Duchamp) y el mundo de dibujos animados de Marla y Balthazar. Toma en cuenta esto: la mayor parte de mi trabajo consiste en presentar ficción utilizando un dispositivo de no ficción. Usando un contexto de no ficción (la grabadora de cabina de vuelo en Survivor o la forma del diario en Diary) puedo prestar realismo y gravedad a historias que, de otra manera, parecerían demasiado ridículas. Una vez más, esto es un guiño a Marcel Duchamp y su idea de que la galería y el marco son lo que legitiman el «arte». Debe haber un equilibrio entre el aspecto libre y creativo de narrar, por una parte, y lo disciplinado, lo contenido y lo formalizado de ese acto, por la otra.  Libertad + Contención = Tensión.

Julián Herbert: En El club de la pelea 3, el disparador de la trama es una epidemia que se difunde mediante técnicas Amway para practicar el sexo. Me parece irónico que, justo cuando el libro se publicaba en inglés, a principios de 2020, el mundo haya tenido que ir en la dirección opuesta. Háblame del halo de nostalgia sexual que emana de tus personajes, especialmente en los divertidos pasajes de esa orgía donde aparece Stephen Hawking.

Chuck Palahniuk: Hablemos de jugar. Por su naturaleza, el juego es consensual y en cierta medida estructurado, como con las reglas de un juego. El club de la pelea funciona porque le da a la gente una forma segura y consensual de explorar la violencia. Como señaló Foucault, el sexo es también un método consensual de explorar el poder y —a veces— la violencia. Como cualquier buena terapia Gestalt, el sexo y la violencia —de nuevo: estructurada y consensual— permiten a los seres humanos reconocer y resolver sus sentimientos más profundos. Como yo lo veo, una parte demasiado grande de nuestra cultura está consagrada a los aspectos «nobles» de una persona, y yo estaba encantado al ver informes de que Hawking disfrutaba pasando tiempo en clubes sexuales. No era solo un tipo brillante. Tenía un lado carnal, y no tenía miedo de actuar con base en esos impulsos.  Dicho esto, espero que las cenizas de Einstein estén echándose un polvo con regularidad.

Julián Herbert: Otra idea provocadora de El club de la pelea 3 es un oxímoron: «Saquear es añadir contenido». La frase se refiere a los expolios de obras de arte practicados por Napoleón y Hitler. Sin embargo, me parece una idea que dialoga también con internet y las redes sociales. ¿Podrías desarrollar esta metáfora desde el punto de vista de cómo la información circula y es almacenada-añadida-saqueada en el siglo XXI?

Chuck Palahniuk: Honestamente, gran parte de mi trabajo consiste en escuchar a la gente contar sus historias, luego cosechar las mejores y encontrar temas comunes que me permitan coser pequeñas anécdotas y convertirlas en otras más grandes. En esa medida, sí que he añadido. Sin embargo, las anécdotas que recojo no están automáticamente destinadas al mercado. Estoy preservando las cosas etéreas, como hace toda la gente. Hasta hace poco, solo los ricos y los patrocinados por clientes ricos podían crear. Si internet destruye el valor de los actos creativos —imágenes, música, historias, recetas— volveremos a un mundo donde solo los ricos crean la cultura. Debido a que no necesitan los ingresos de su trabajo creativo, los ricos serán nuestros escritores y artistas y solo van a representar su mundo.  Volveremos a las pinturas de aristócratas y a las sinfonías interpretadas para las religiones.

«Hasta hace poco, sólo los ricos y los patrocinados por clientes ricos podían crear. Si internet destruye el valor de los actos creativos —imágenes, música, historias, recetas— volveremos a un mundo donde solo los ricos crean la cultura. Como no necesitan los ingresos de su trabajo creativo, los ricos serán nuestros escritores y artistas y sólo van a representar su mundo. Volveremos a las pinturas de aristócratas y a las sinfonías interpretadas para las religiones». 

Julián Herbert: El otro día te escuché hablar del cerezo de Jerusalén. Me encantó el cuidado y el afecto con el que describiste esa planta. A veces tus personajes utilizan a los animales como metáforas de sus instintos, incluso hay un pasaje con furry animals en El club de la pelea 3. Percibo en tu escritura mucho jugueteo, transgresión y violencia respecto de la vida-no-humana. Pero percibo también, en todo eso, un inopinado trasfondo de ternura.

Chuck Palahniuk: Como yo veo la cultura, cada vez más personas consideran que los animales son las últimas víctimas reales. Las plantas y los animales no tienen ninguna agencia. En su mayor parte, viven en un mundo controlado por los humanos. Es aterrador, pero cada día se incrementa el número de personas que piensan que hasta los niños son responsables de crear su propia miseria. Qué tan bien tratamos a los animales determina cómo nos trataremos unos a otros. Mi esperanza es que podamos aumentar nuestra humanidad dando mejor cuidado a los no humanos.

Julián Herbert: Le conté a una amiga que iba a entrevistarte. Me dijo: «Amo a ese wey, me produce pesadillas».

Chuck Palahniuk: Las pesadillas son una buena señal. Demasiada de nuestra cultura se basa en confortar y adormecer a la gente. ¿Por qué la mayor parte de la gente lee libros? Para dormirse. Eso me entristece. Si puedo asustarte, o hacerte reír, o hacer que te sientas enfermo del estómago, esa es la prueba de que hice mi trabajo. Así que gracias.



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