Entrevistas

Millás y Arsuaga, Arsuaga y Millás: la fiesta de la inteligencia debe continuar

El paleoantropólogo y el escritor culminan con «La conciencia contada por un sapiens a un neandertal» (Alfaguara, 2024) su exitosa trilogía de libros en torno a la evolución humana. Después de ocuparse en las dos entregas anteriores de las razones biológicas de la vida y de la muerte, esta vez le toca el turno a la maravillosa colmena que zumba en el interior de nuestro cerebro. LENGUA conversa con ellos acerca de la memoria, la libertad, el sexo, el libre albedrío, el origen del sufrimiento, la inteligencia artificial o los genes egoístas (y lo hacen sin perder nunca su fascinante alquimia de conocimiento, humor y arte de vivir).

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Luis Arsuaga y Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s. Cr\u00e9dito: Diego Lafuente.\",\"link_to\":\"none\",\"link\":{\"is_external\":\"\",\"url\":\"\"},\"view\":\"traditional\",\"section_style_image\":\"\",\"space\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"opacity\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":1},\"hover_animation\":\"\",\"image_border_border\":\"\",\"image_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"image_border_color\":\"\",\"image_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"image_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"image_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"image\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"r7uefc9\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p style=\\\"text-align: right;\\\">Juan Luis Arsuaga y Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s. 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style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/ciencia-y-tecnologia\/348656-ebook-la-conciencia-contada-por-un-sapiens-a-un-neandertal-9788420471914\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Un escritor y un paleont\u00f3logo<\/a><\/span> caminan una ma\u00f1ana de septiembre por la dehesa de la madrile\u00f1a sierra de Gredos, entre encinares, robledales y quejigales que brillan \u00abcomo espejos a la luz del sol\u00bb. Caminan y discuten, se lanzan pullas, se r\u00eden. Hoy la cosa gira en torno al libre albedr\u00edo. El paleont\u00f3logo lo niega, el escritor duda. \u00abPues hace poco sali\u00f3 en la tele un hombre que se hab\u00eda encontrado una cartera con cinco mil euros y la entreg\u00f3 en comisar\u00eda\u00bb. \u00abLo har\u00eda para salir en la tele\u00bb. Su paseo les llevar\u00e1 hacia un centro de interpretaci\u00f3n sobre las abejas donde pondr\u00e1n a prueba una importante consideraci\u00f3n. \u00bfEl cerebro humano se parece a un ordenador o m\u00e1s bien a una colmena?<\/p><p>Hay que decirlo. <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/747-juan-jose-millas\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s<\/a><\/span> (Valencia, 1946) y <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/166102-juan-luis-arsuaga\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Juan Luis Arsuaga<\/a><\/span> (Madrid, 1954) han logrado una alquimia fascinante que combina conocimiento, inteligencia y arte de vivir en su serie de libros -publicados todos ellos por Alfaguara- sobre la evoluci\u00f3n humana escritos a cuatro manos y cuya tercera entrega, y probablemente \u00faltima, llega estos d\u00edas a las librer\u00edas. El primero fue <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/ciencia-y-tecnologia\/7124-libro-la-vida-contada-por-un-sapiens-a-un-neandertal-9788420439655\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">La vida contada por un sapiens a un neandertal<\/a><\/em><\/span> (2020), el segundo, <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/economia-politica-y-actualidad\/278533-libro-la-muerte-contada-por-un-sapiens-a-un-neandertal-9788420461052\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">La muerte contada por un sapiens a un neandertal<\/a><\/em><\/span> (2022) y ahora llega <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/ciencia-y-tecnologia\/348656-ebook-la-conciencia-contada-por-un-sapiens-a-un-neandertal-9788420471914\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">La conciencia contada por un sapiens a un neandertal<\/a><\/em><\/span>.<\/p><p>Mill\u00e1s, periodista y premiado autor de novelas como <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/literatura-contemporanea\/291206-libro-vision-del-ahogado-9788420463384\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Visi\u00f3n del ahogado<\/a><\/em><\/span>, <em>El orden alfab\u00e9tico<\/em> o <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/literatura-contemporanea\/314360-libro-el-mundo-9788420463971\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">El mundo<\/a><\/em><\/span>, es aqu\u00ed el ingenuo y curioso hombre de letras <em>neandertal.<\/em> Arsuaga, codirector del yacimiento de Atapuerca, premio Pr\u00edncipe de Asturias y autor del <em>best seller<\/em> de divulgaci\u00f3n <em>La especie elegida,<\/em> es el racional cient\u00edfico <em>sapiens.<\/em> En las conversaciones entre ambos, en paseos, comidas y visitas a toda clase de lugares fascinantes, van devanando el hilo de tal vez el mayor de los enigmas del ser humano, esa conciencia esquiva que, cuando creemos estar a punto de comprenderla, se nos vuelva a escapar de las manos.<\/p><p>Vuelan en estas p\u00e1ginas, con enga\u00f1osa ligereza, cuestiones cruciales para armar el puzle de innumerables piezas que responda a la gran pregunta kantiana: \u00bfqu\u00e9 es el hombre? La memoria, la libertad, la raz\u00f3n de ser de los sistemas complejos, el sexo, el agresivo cerebro <em>reptiliano,<\/em> el origen del sufrimiento, la urdimbre estructural de nuestro privilegiado enc\u00e9falo, la inteligencia artificial, los genes ego\u00edstas\u2026 y la amistad.\u00a0<\/p><p>El entrevistador aprovecha para expandir todos estos asuntos cuando se cita en Madrid con Arsuaga y Mill\u00e1s, <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.rtve.es\/play\/videos\/la-revuelta\/programa-11-09-2024-jose-millas-juan-luis-arsuaga\/16244999\/\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">el mismo d\u00eda en que su presencia en La Revuelta<\/a><\/span> (RTVE) le dar\u00e1 su primer r\u00e9cord de audiencia al nuevo programa de David Broncano. Los dos autores y amigos se elogian y se critican como una pareja que ya se conoce demasiado bien. 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Todas las afirmaciones terribles que a uno le golpean cuando lee libros de neurociencia, que no existe el yo ni el libre albedr\u00edo, o que somos ego\u00edstas, se asimilan mucho mejor bajo el sortilegio de una conversaci\u00f3n entre amigos. \u00bfSe sienten agentes del mal en misi\u00f3n de inc\u00f3gnito?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Claro, es que si el demonio existe debe ser una persona encantadora, no una bestia espantosa y repugnante con cuernos. Yo hace tiempo llegu\u00e9 a proponerle a varios artistas que pintaran al diablo con todo su atractivo.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Es que Luzbel era el \u00e1ngel m\u00e1s bello del cielo.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Eso es. A ver, sin duda, los temas de los que nos ocupamos son endemoniados, pero nosotros los contamos con mucha naturalidad<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Nuestra propuesta en estos libros es la siguiente. Yo tengo curiosidad por ti, Arsuaga, y t\u00fa tienes curiosidad por m\u00ed. Tenemos mucha curiosidad el uno por el otro. La hemos puesto a funcionar y este es el resultado. Estoy viendo ahora <em>Mad Men,<\/em> tarde, lo s\u00e9, y en un cap\u00edtulo me encontr\u00e9 a Don Draper escribiendo un diario: \u00abCuando un hombre entra en una habitaci\u00f3n, lo hace con toda su vida\u00bb. Pues bien, cada uno de nosotros nos hemos colado en la habitaci\u00f3n del otro. 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Pero s\u00ed s\u00e9 quien lo ha pasado peor. \u00a1Yo!<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> \u00bfT\u00fa?<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> S\u00ed, porque t\u00fa, Arsuaga, no ten\u00edas en cuenta que yo en este tiempo me iba haciendo cada vez m\u00e1s viejo. Me citabas una y otra vez a las seis de la ma\u00f1ana para llevarme de excursi\u00f3n. A la catedral de Burgos, por ejemplo. Y yo arrastr\u00e1ndome y jadeando. Tuve que seguir el ritmo tuyo que es el de una persona que no se ha hecho vieja todav\u00eda.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Todav\u00eda no. Debo decir que yo, que llevo toda la vida en esto de la divulgaci\u00f3n, siempre he combatido la idea muy extendida de que la divulgaci\u00f3n deba ser divertida. No me parece que nuestros libros se puedan describir como divulgativos, pero, en cualquier caso, la comedia puede ser divertida, pero la ciencia tiene que ser interesante. 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He le\u00eddo que aqu\u00ed cierran trilog\u00eda. No va m\u00e1s.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Hemos decidido terminar aqu\u00ed.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Y no tenemos ninguna duda de que un cuarto libro ser\u00eda un \u00e9xito. \u00bfY qu\u00e9?<\/p><p><strong>LENGUA: Recordaban ahora sus comilonas. Arrancan, de hecho, comiendo callos y despotricando contra el libre albedr\u00edo. \u00bfEs la nueva moda entre cient\u00edficos?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Lo que ocurre es que antes se trataba de una pregunta filos\u00f3fica, pero ahora contamos con los resultados de los experimentos que demuestran que ejecutamos una acci\u00f3n milisegundos antes de haberla pensado. Pens\u00e9moslo bien. Si verdaderamente actu\u00e1ramos s\u00f3lo despu\u00e9s de reflexionar al respecto, los tiempos de reacci\u00f3n ser\u00edan inasumibles para nuestra supervivencia.<\/p><p><strong>LENGUA: Se sol\u00eda decir que, si no existe el mismo albedr\u00edo, al menos es una ficci\u00f3n \u00fatil. Pero ahora, el neurocient\u00edfico Robert Sapolsky asegura que los seres humanos obrar\u00edamos mejor si acept\u00e1ramos la cruda realidad\u2026<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Ojo que Sapolsky lo que quiere es vender su libro. Cuando un cient\u00edfico estadounidense escribe un libro de divulgaci\u00f3n, cuidado con \u00e9l. Su esp\u00edritu comercial es muy superior al de cualquiera de nosotros y sabe c\u00f3mo exagerar para llamar la atenci\u00f3n.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Es el que dec\u00eda que habr\u00eda que abolir el c\u00f3digo penal, \u00bfverdad? No es nuestro caso. Dir\u00eda que Arsuaga y yo a\u00fan jugamos en un tablero de juego que defiende un m\u00ednimo de responsabilidad. La discusi\u00f3n sobre el libre albedr\u00edo es m\u00e1s ret\u00f3rica que real. \u00bfSi tuvi\u00e9ramos la informaci\u00f3n suficiente sobre las acciones humanas, todo estar\u00eda escrito ya? Hombre\u2026<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> O lo que dice Tolstoi: \u00abEntenderlo todo es perdonarlo todo\u00bb. Y entonces ya nadie causa ning\u00fan mal, todos son v\u00edctimas de sus circunstancias.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> No s\u00e9, tal vez con el tiempo se demuestre algo as\u00ed, pero lo dudo. El tipejo este, por ejemplo, que drogaba a su mujer para que la violaran otros. R\u00e1pidamente, la defensa intent\u00f3 explicar que hab\u00eda sido maltratado en su ni\u00f1ez. Menos mal que por el momento no aplicamos semejante discurso que queda restringido al \u00e1mbito de la pura especulaci\u00f3n filos\u00f3fica.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"jhk7ql5\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abNuestra propuesta en estos libros es la siguiente. 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A un lado las de las letras, al otro las de ciencias.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Y, sin embargo, ese edificio de Fisac buscaba algo hist\u00f3rico. Se trataba del primer intento de utilizar enormes ordenadores de IBM para hacer arte, pintura y m\u00fasica. Porque ya en los a\u00f1os 60 se plante\u00f3 el debate acerca de si una computadora podr\u00eda crear arte.<\/p><p><strong>LENGUA: \u00bfEsa divisi\u00f3n nos advierte de que la b\u00fasqueda de una tercera cultura que unifique ciencias y humanidades es un p\u00edo deseo?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Qu\u00e9 momento de la humanidad tan jodido fue aquel en el que decidimos separar las humanidades y las ciencias cuando desde la antig\u00fcedad siempre hab\u00edan ido de la mano. Pero tambi\u00e9n le digo: soy un hombre de letras que despu\u00e9s de tantas conversaciones con un cient\u00edfico como Arsuaga he acabado por intuir que existen razones para que sigan separadas.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> El sorprendente descubrimiento de que somos un mam\u00edfero deber\u00eda haber cambiado toda nuestra cultura y a veces parece que la gente de letras, los soci\u00f3logos, por ejemplo, no se han dado cuenta de algo tan sencillo como que somos mam\u00edferos. Tengo una colega que afirma, por ejemplo, que lo que hacemos llevando a los ni\u00f1os a algo tan antinatural como el jard\u00edn de infancia, casi sin moverse ni hablar, deber\u00eda estar penado por la ley como explotaci\u00f3n infantil.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> De hecho, la educaci\u00f3n consiste, en parte, en arrancar al cr\u00edo de su enso\u00f1aci\u00f3n natural y ponerle los pies en la tierra. \u00bfEs una locura? El mundo es una locura. 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Volvamos al libro. En la Complutense salen a relucir las met\u00e1foras con las que tratamos ese sistema complejo que es el cerebro. Aseguran por cierto que la met\u00e1fora m\u00e1s usada, la del cerebro como un ordenador, es equ\u00edvoca. \u00bfCada tiempo es v\u00edctima de sus met\u00e1foras?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Funcionamos con analog\u00edas con lo que tenemos a mano.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Y est\u00e1 bien siempre que no nos pasemos. Yo antes que el ordenador prefiero la colmena y sus propiedades emergentes como met\u00e1fora del cerebro.<\/p><p><strong>LENGUA: \u00bfLa conciencia ser\u00eda una de esas propiedades emergentes?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> El gran debate. \u00bfLa conciencia es una propiedad emergente o un epifen\u00f3meno?<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Desarr\u00f3llalo un poco.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Ja ja ja, lo intento. Epifen\u00f3meno es una propiedad que surge de algo, pero que no tiene ninguna funci\u00f3n.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Danos un ejemplo<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> La sombra. \u00bfPara qu\u00e9 sirve la sombra? Para nada.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> \u00a1Anda! \u00a1Acabo de recordar que ya tuvimos esta discusi\u00f3n! Pues a Peter Pan le fastidiaba perder su sombra.<\/p><p><strong>LENGUA: Queda claro lo que es un epifen\u00f3meno. \u00bfY una propiedad emergente?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Las propiedades emergentes s\u00ed cumplen una funci\u00f3n. Los bi\u00f3logos somos emergentistas por oposici\u00f3n a los qu\u00edmicos reduccionistas, por ejemplo. \u00bfTodo es qu\u00edmica? Pues no. La qu\u00edmica de los seres vivos produce propiedades nuevas que no estaban en los elementos qu\u00edmicos previos. Si digo que somos un 80% de agua, y tanto hidr\u00f3geno y tanto carbono\u2026 \u00bfestoy describiendo al ser humano? De nuevo, no.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Suelo decir, es verdad que m\u00e1s bien como <em>boutade,<\/em> que si nuestro libro sirve para entender estos asuntos, hemos m\u00e1s que cumplido nuestra misi\u00f3n. Porque yo he logrado entenderlos precisamente mientras lo escrib\u00eda y he quedado fascinado. Descubrir que los sistemas complejos pueden producir cosas que no son deducibles de la suma de sus partes, pensadlo bien, es algo impresionante. La incertidumbre es total.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"mvx7q18\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abHay dos tipos de personas: aquellas que se parecen a la inteligencia artificial y son absolutamente predecibles, que siempre sabes qu\u00e9 van a decir de cualquier asunto porque todo lo ven en clave binaria; y luego est\u00e1n los que te sorprenden, los maravillosamente impredecibles\u00bb. Juan Luis Arsuaga.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"nets44l\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>LENGUA: \u00bfLograremos entender alg\u00fan d\u00eda la conciencia o se trata de un problema irresoluble, algo as\u00ed como un c\u00edrculo cuadrado?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> No por casualidad se le llama el problema dif\u00edcil. Y cuando analizamos ese problema, aparece un concepto esencial, los qualia. Todo el mundo percibe el color rojo como rojo, pero, adem\u00e1s, a m\u00ed puede producirme una emoci\u00f3n especial porque vi la sangre de mi padre de ni\u00f1o.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Pero eso no son los qualia. Las emociones nacen en nuestra am\u00edgdala. Qualia es el mero hecho del rojo. Una c\u00e1mara de fotos digital guarda los colores en forma de ceros y unos. Para esa c\u00e1mara, el rojo no es nada, s\u00f3lo informaci\u00f3n. Para nosotros es algo. \u00bfPor qu\u00e9. Eso es lo que llamamos qualia.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> El color rojo es el resultado de una longitud de onda. Pero las emociones son los qualia.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> No. No has entendido los qualia, Mill\u00e1s.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> \u00bfC\u00f3mo que no los entiendo?<br \/><br \/><\/p><p><em>(Mill\u00e1s y Arsuaga inician una virulenta discusi\u00f3n sobre uno de los m\u00e1s abstrusos conceptos de la filosof\u00eda de la mente a la que el entrevistador asiste fascinando, pero que no se siente capaz de trasladar al lector sin enloquecerlo).<br \/><br \/><\/em><\/p><p><strong>LENGUA: En una de sus conversaciones, les sorprende que ChatGPT sea m\u00e1s inteligente que muchas personas.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Va a aburrir, la gente se cansar\u00e1 de ChatGPT.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> No va a aburrir porque va m\u00e1s r\u00e1pido que nuestra capacidad de aburrirnos.<\/p><p><strong>LENGUA: Y sin embargo, ChatGPT en realidad no sabe lo que dice. No es consciente.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Qu\u00e9 m\u00e1s da si lo finge. La mayor\u00eda de nosotros tampoco sabemos lo que estamos diciendo. Nos preguntan qu\u00e9 nos pareci\u00f3 el debate entre Harris y Trump y contamos lo que hemos le\u00eddo en el editorial de <em>El Pa\u00eds.<\/em><\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> ChatGPT es un buscador de informaci\u00f3n, nada m\u00e1s. F\u00edjese, hay dos tipos de personas, aquellas que se parecen a la inteligencia artificial y son absolutamente predecibles. Siempre sabes qu\u00e9 van a decir de cualquier asunto porque todo lo ven en clave binaria. Esos que, si mencionas una marca de zapatos, te llaman facha. Y luego est\u00e1n los que te sorprenden, los maravillosamente impredecibles.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"o8pglce\",\"elType\":\"section\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_layout\":\"\",\"stretch_section\":\"\",\"layout\":\"boxed\",\"content_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"gap\":\"default\",\"height\":\"default\",\"custom_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":400},\"column_position\":\"middle\",\"content_position\":\"\",\"structure\":\"10\",\"section_background\":\"\",\"background_background\":\"\",\"background_color\":\"\",\"background_color_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":0},\"background_color_b\":\"\",\"background_color_b_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"background_gradient_type\":\"linear\",\"background_gradient_angle\":{\"unit\":\"deg\",\"size\":180},\"background_gradient_position\":\"center 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Luis Arsuaga y Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s. Cr\u00e9dito: Diego Lafuente.\",\"link_to\":\"none\",\"link\":{\"is_external\":\"\",\"url\":\"\"},\"view\":\"traditional\",\"section_style_image\":\"\",\"space\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"opacity\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":1},\"hover_animation\":\"\",\"image_border_border\":\"\",\"image_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"image_border_color\":\"\",\"image_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"image_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"image_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"image\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"4iyvavd\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p style=\\\"text-align: right;\\\">Cr\u00e9dito: <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/diegolafuentephoto\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Diego 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\u00bfPor qu\u00e9 nos asusta que las m\u00e1quinas se hagan inteligentes y nos esclavicen cuando a\u00fan son est\u00fapidas y ya somos sus esclavos?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> No las minusvalore. Yo creo que chatGPT se hace la tonta. Es capaz de escribir con coherencia y con sintaxis sobre lo que le pidas. \u00bfCu\u00e1nta gente hay as\u00ed?<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Recuerda, de todas formas, que los ordenadores binarios siguen siendo muy poco eficientes. Nos ganan en potencia de c\u00e1lculo de leyes l\u00f3gicas, en programaci\u00f3n, no en inteligencia. Y el lenguaje no deja de ser un sistema l\u00f3gico. \u00bfQu\u00e9 lograr\u00e1n los ordenadores cu\u00e1nticos? Ya veremos, que a\u00fan no han llegado.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> \u00bfNosotros no trabajamos tambi\u00e9n con algoritmos, Arsuaga?<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> \u00bfEl cerebro humano?<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> S\u00ed.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> \u00a1Lo sabr\u00edas si leyeras el libro que hemos escrito! Ja, ja, ja.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Ja, ja, ja. No est\u00e1 claro si el cerebro humano es algor\u00edtmico o no<\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Es cierto, no est\u00e1 claro. Es otro gran debate.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>LENGUA:\u00a0 En un momento del libro, Arsuaga le cuenta a Mill\u00e1s que su nieto de ocho meses no se reconoce en el espejo porque a\u00fan no tiene yo.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Juan Luis Arsuaga:<\/strong> Ahora ya s\u00ed se reconoce, ya ha adquirido el yo. Pero no en la prueba del espejo, no. Hoy existe algo mejor: \u00a1el m\u00f3vil! Jugamos a grabar peliculitas y \u00e9l va reconociendo a los que salen:<em> aitata,<\/em> que soy yo, <em>aita,<\/em> su padre\u2026 Y cu\u00e1ndo sale \u00e9l, dice \u00ab\u00a1\u00c1lex!\u00bb. En ese instante est\u00e1 superando la prueba del espejo, que ten\u00eda sus complicaciones, el ni\u00f1o ten\u00eda que prestar atenci\u00f3n, etc. Esto no se lo he sugerido a nadie m\u00e1s, atenci\u00f3n. Recomiendo a los lectores que hagan la prueba con sus hijos justo cuando aprendan a hablar. Grabad una escena con varios personajes y mirad qu\u00e9 ocurre cuando el propio ni\u00f1o se ve a s\u00ed mismo. Inmediatamente sabe qui\u00e9nes son sus familiares, pero no es tan f\u00e1cil saber qui\u00e9n es uno mismo.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s:<\/strong> Yo mismo no tengo muy claro qui\u00e9n soy.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"oeliq1x\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p class=\\\"MsoNormal\\\"><strong>OTROS\u00a0CONTENIDOS DE INTER\u00c9S:<\/strong><\/p><p class=\\\"MsoNormal\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/juan-jose-millas-y-los-restos-de-nevenka-fernandez\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Juan Jos\u00e9 Mill\u00e1s y los restos de Nevenka Fern\u00e1ndez<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/bret-easton-ellis-por-rodrigo-fresan-los-destrozos\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Bret Easton Ellis por Rodrigo Fres\u00e1n: \u00abModestamente, todo lo m\u00edo empieza y termina en m\u00ed\u00bb<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/yuval-noah-harari-nexus-inteligencia-artificial-amenaza\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">\u00abNunca invoques un poder que no puedas controlar\u00bb: Yuval Noah Harari sobre c\u00f3mo la IA podr\u00eda amenazar la democracia y dividir al mundo<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/salman-rushdie-javier-cercas-montserrat-dominguez-ateneo-madrid\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Salman Rushdie: \u00abEl humor es una respuesta al fanatismo. \u00bfAlguien puede imaginarse a un talib\u00e1n que al mismo tiempo fuera un c\u00f3mico?\u00bb<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/pepe-mujica-noam-chomsky-latinoamerica-saul-alvidrez\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Pepe Mujica y Noam Chomsky: Latinoam\u00e9rica, \u00bffaro de 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20 minutos

Por  Daniel Arjona

Juan Luis Arsuaga y Juan José Millás. Crédito: Diego Lafuente.

Juan Luis Arsuaga y Juan José Millás. Crédito: Diego Lafuente.

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Un escritor y un paleontólogo caminan una mañana de septiembre por la dehesa de la madrileña sierra de Gredos, entre encinares, robledales y quejigales que brillan «como espejos a la luz del sol». Caminan y discuten, se lanzan pullas, se ríen. Hoy la cosa gira en torno al libre albedrío. El paleontólogo lo niega, el escritor duda. «Pues hace poco salió en la tele un hombre que se había encontrado una cartera con cinco mil euros y la entregó en comisaría». «Lo haría para salir en la tele». Su paseo les llevará hacia un centro de interpretación sobre las abejas donde pondrán a prueba una importante consideración. ¿El cerebro humano se parece a un ordenador o más bien a una colmena?

Hay que decirlo. Juan José Millás (Valencia, 1946) y Juan Luis Arsuaga (Madrid, 1954) han logrado una alquimia fascinante que combina conocimiento, inteligencia y arte de vivir en su serie de libros -publicados todos ellos por Alfaguara- sobre la evolución humana escritos a cuatro manos y cuya tercera entrega, y probablemente última, llega estos días a las librerías. El primero fue La vida contada por un sapiens a un neandertal (2020), el segundo, La muerte contada por un sapiens a un neandertal (2022) y ahora llega La conciencia contada por un sapiens a un neandertal.

Millás, periodista y premiado autor de novelas como Visión del ahogado, El orden alfabético o El mundo, es aquí el ingenuo y curioso hombre de letras neandertal. Arsuaga, codirector del yacimiento de Atapuerca, premio Príncipe de Asturias y autor del best seller de divulgación La especie elegida, es el racional científico sapiens. En las conversaciones entre ambos, en paseos, comidas y visitas a toda clase de lugares fascinantes, van devanando el hilo de tal vez el mayor de los enigmas del ser humano, esa conciencia esquiva que, cuando creemos estar a punto de comprenderla, se nos vuelva a escapar de las manos.

Vuelan en estas páginas, con engañosa ligereza, cuestiones cruciales para armar el puzle de innumerables piezas que responda a la gran pregunta kantiana: ¿qué es el hombre? La memoria, la libertad, la razón de ser de los sistemas complejos, el sexo, el agresivo cerebro reptiliano, el origen del sufrimiento, la urdimbre estructural de nuestro privilegiado encéfalo, la inteligencia artificial, los genes egoístas… y la amistad. 

El entrevistador aprovecha para expandir todos estos asuntos cuando se cita en Madrid con Arsuaga y Millás, el mismo día en que su presencia en La Revuelta (RTVE) le dará su primer récord de audiencia al nuevo programa de David Broncano. Los dos autores y amigos se elogian y se critican como una pareja que ya se conoce demasiado bien. La fiesta de la inteligencia debe continuar.

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LENGUA: Se me ocurría algo mientras leía el libro. Todas las afirmaciones terribles que a uno le golpean cuando lee libros de neurociencia, que no existe el yo ni el libre albedrío, o que somos egoístas, se asimilan mucho mejor bajo el sortilegio de una conversación entre amigos. ¿Se sienten agentes del mal en misión de incógnito?

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Claro, es que si el demonio existe debe ser una persona encantadora, no una bestia espantosa y repugnante con cuernos. Yo hace tiempo llegué a proponerle a varios artistas que pintaran al diablo con todo su atractivo.

Juan José Millás: Es que Luzbel era el ángel más bello del cielo. 

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Eso es. A ver, sin duda, los temas de los que nos ocupamos son endemoniados, pero nosotros los contamos con mucha naturalidad

Juan José Millás: Nuestra propuesta en estos libros es la siguiente. Yo tengo curiosidad por ti, Arsuaga, y tú tienes curiosidad por mí. Tenemos mucha curiosidad el uno por el otro. La hemos puesto a funcionar y este es el resultado. Estoy viendo ahora Mad Men, tarde, lo sé, y en un capítulo me encontré a Don Draper escribiendo un diario: «Cuando un hombre entra en una habitación, lo hace con toda su vida». Pues bien, cada uno de nosotros nos hemos colado en la habitación del otro. El núcleo de nuestro relato es cómo se relacionan dos personas que vienen de mundos muy distintos y, en torno a ese núcleo, se trenzan los temas científicos con afán novelesco. 

LENGUA: Hace poco entrevisté al neurocientífico Rodrigo Quian Quiroga, que aparece como personaje invitado en el libro, y me aseguró que en el MIT ya han logrado introducir memorias falsas en el cerebro de un ratón. ¿Pero no nos inventamos ya recuerdos los seres humanos sin necesidad del MIT?

Juan Luis Arsuaga: La tecnología, en realidad, no inventa nada. Lo que hace es potenciar algo que ya existe y nos interesa. Yo no soy capaz de percibir el campo magnético y fabrico una máquina que me dice dónde está el polo norte. La técnica amplía lo que ya hay. Cuándo alguien pregunta «¿qué ocurrirá en el futuro?», yo respondo, «¡nada que no exista ya!». Tal vez algunas de nuestras capacidades o deseos, buenos o malos, se amplifiquen. ¿Usted quiere tener sexo virtual? Pues alguien se lo proporcionará de forma hiperrealista. Si un ser humano demanda algo, buscaremos la manera de conseguir una máquina que se lo dé a cambio de un precio.

Juan José Millás: Lo de los recuerdos es verdad. Gran parte de nuestra memoria es inventada. Yo también leo a muchos neurocientíficos y uno de ellos contaba en un libro reciente que recordaba perfectamente haber sufrido de pequeño un incendio en su casa. Hasta que un día, su hermano mayor le dijo: «¡Pero si tú vivías entonces en el internado!». Es algo que nuestros cerebros hacen todo el tiempo.

«Tú, Arsuaga, no tenías en cuenta que yo en este tiempo me iba haciendo cada vez más viejo. Me citabas una y otra vez a las seis de la mañana para llevarme de excursión. A la catedral de Burgos, por ejemplo. Y yo arrastrándome y jadeando. Tuve que seguir el ritmo tuyo que es el de una persona que no se ha hecho vieja todavía». Juan José Millás.

LENGUA: Después de cinco años y tres libros, ¿quién ha aprendido más de quién y quién se lo ha pasado mejor? ¿El antropólogo sapiens o el escritor neandertal?

Juan José Millás: No lo hemos cuantificado. Pero sí sé quien lo ha pasado peor. ¡Yo!

Juan Luis Arsuaga: ¿Tú?

Juan José Millás: Sí, porque tú, Arsuaga, no tenías en cuenta que yo en este tiempo me iba haciendo cada vez más viejo. Me citabas una y otra vez a las seis de la mañana para llevarme de excursión. A la catedral de Burgos, por ejemplo. Y yo arrastrándome y jadeando. Tuve que seguir el ritmo tuyo que es el de una persona que no se ha hecho vieja todavía.

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Todavía no. Debo decir que yo, que llevo toda la vida en esto de la divulgación, siempre he combatido la idea muy extendida de que la divulgación deba ser divertida. No me parece que nuestros libros se puedan describir como divulgativos, pero, en cualquier caso, la comedia puede ser divertida, pero la ciencia tiene que ser interesante. Cuando era más joven y me gustaba ligar, descubrí que me funcionaba mejor resultar interesante que divertido. Y nuestra relación tampoco ha sido divertida. «¡Os lo habréis pasado muy bien!», nos dicen. «¡Vayas comidas os pegáis!». Y hombre, pues sí, comemos, qué se le va a hacer.

Juan Luis Arsuaga y Juan José Millás. Crédito: Diego Lafuente.
Juan Luis Arsuaga y Juan José Millás. Crédito: Diego Lafuente.

Crédito: Diego Lafuente.

LENGUA: He leído que aquí cierran trilogía. No va más. 

Juan José Millás: Hemos decidido terminar aquí.

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Y no tenemos ninguna duda de que un cuarto libro sería un éxito. ¿Y qué?

LENGUA: Recordaban ahora sus comilonas. Arrancan, de hecho, comiendo callos y despotricando contra el libre albedrío. ¿Es la nueva moda entre científicos?

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Lo que ocurre es que antes se trataba de una pregunta filosófica, pero ahora contamos con los resultados de los experimentos que demuestran que ejecutamos una acción milisegundos antes de haberla pensado. Pensémoslo bien. Si verdaderamente actuáramos sólo después de reflexionar al respecto, los tiempos de reacción serían inasumibles para nuestra supervivencia.

LENGUA: Se solía decir que, si no existe el mismo albedrío, al menos es una ficción útil. Pero ahora, el neurocientífico Robert Sapolsky asegura que los seres humanos obraríamos mejor si aceptáramos la cruda realidad…

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Ojo que Sapolsky lo que quiere es vender su libro. Cuando un científico estadounidense escribe un libro de divulgación, cuidado con él. Su espíritu comercial es muy superior al de cualquiera de nosotros y sabe cómo exagerar para llamar la atención. 

Juan José Millás: Es el que decía que habría que abolir el código penal, ¿verdad? No es nuestro caso. Diría que Arsuaga y yo aún jugamos en un tablero de juego que defiende un mínimo de responsabilidad. La discusión sobre el libre albedrío es más retórica que real. ¿Si tuviéramos la información suficiente sobre las acciones humanas, todo estaría escrito ya? Hombre…

Juan Luis Arsuaga: O lo que dice Tolstoi: «Entenderlo todo es perdonarlo todo». Y entonces ya nadie causa ningún mal, todos son víctimas de sus circunstancias. 

Juan José Millás: No sé, tal vez con el tiempo se demuestre algo así, pero lo dudo. El tipejo este, por ejemplo, que drogaba a su mujer para que la violaran otros. Rápidamente, la defensa intentó explicar que había sido maltratado en su niñez. Menos mal que por el momento no aplicamos semejante discurso que queda restringido al ámbito de la pura especulación filosófica.

«Nuestra propuesta en estos libros es la siguiente. Yo tengo curiosidad por ti, Arsuaga, y tú tienes curiosidad por mí. Tenemos mucha curiosidad el uno por el otro. La hemos puesto a funcionar y este es el resultado». Juan José Millás.

LENGUA: Luego acuden en el libro al Centro de Proceso de Datos de la Universidad Complutense y señalan un dato curioso: allí las facultades están separadas. A un lado las de las letras, al otro las de ciencias. 

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Y, sin embargo, ese edificio de Fisac buscaba algo histórico. Se trataba del primer intento de utilizar enormes ordenadores de IBM para hacer arte, pintura y música. Porque ya en los años 60 se planteó el debate acerca de si una computadora podría crear arte.

LENGUA: ¿Esa división nos advierte de que la búsqueda de una tercera cultura que unifique ciencias y humanidades es un pío deseo?

Juan José Millás: Qué momento de la humanidad tan jodido fue aquel en el que decidimos separar las humanidades y las ciencias cuando desde la antigüedad siempre habían ido de la mano. Pero también le digo: soy un hombre de letras que después de tantas conversaciones con un científico como Arsuaga he acabado por intuir que existen razones para que sigan separadas.

Juan Luis Arsuaga: El sorprendente descubrimiento de que somos un mamífero debería haber cambiado toda nuestra cultura y a veces parece que la gente de letras, los sociólogos, por ejemplo, no se han dado cuenta de algo tan sencillo como que somos mamíferos. Tengo una colega que afirma, por ejemplo, que lo que hacemos llevando a los niños a algo tan antinatural como el jardín de infancia, casi sin moverse ni hablar, debería estar penado por la ley como explotación infantil.

Juan José Millás: De hecho, la educación consiste, en parte, en arrancar al crío de su ensoñación natural y ponerle los pies en la tierra. ¿Es una locura? El mundo es una locura. Una profesora me dijo una vez que ella lo que buscaba era formar «niños normales». Se me pusieron los pelos de punta.

Juan Luis Arsuaga y Juan José Millás. Crédito: Diego Lafuente.
Juan Luis Arsuaga y Juan José Millás. Crédito: Diego Lafuente.

Crédito: Diego Lafuente.

LENGUA: Volvamos al libro. En la Complutense salen a relucir las metáforas con las que tratamos ese sistema complejo que es el cerebro. Aseguran por cierto que la metáfora más usada, la del cerebro como un ordenador, es equívoca. ¿Cada tiempo es víctima de sus metáforas?

Juan José Millás: Funcionamos con analogías con lo que tenemos a mano.

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Y está bien siempre que no nos pasemos. Yo antes que el ordenador prefiero la colmena y sus propiedades emergentes como metáfora del cerebro.

LENGUA: ¿La conciencia sería una de esas propiedades emergentes?

Juan Luis Arsuaga: El gran debate. ¿La conciencia es una propiedad emergente o un epifenómeno?

Juan José Millás: Desarróllalo un poco.

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Ja ja ja, lo intento. Epifenómeno es una propiedad que surge de algo, pero que no tiene ninguna función.

Juan José Millás: Danos un ejemplo

Juan Luis Arsuaga: La sombra. ¿Para qué sirve la sombra? Para nada.

Juan José Millás: ¡Anda! ¡Acabo de recordar que ya tuvimos esta discusión! Pues a Peter Pan le fastidiaba perder su sombra.

LENGUA: Queda claro lo que es un epifenómeno. ¿Y una propiedad emergente?

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Las propiedades emergentes sí cumplen una función. Los biólogos somos emergentistas por oposición a los químicos reduccionistas, por ejemplo. ¿Todo es química? Pues no. La química de los seres vivos produce propiedades nuevas que no estaban en los elementos químicos previos. Si digo que somos un 80% de agua, y tanto hidrógeno y tanto carbono… ¿estoy describiendo al ser humano? De nuevo, no.

Juan José Millás: Suelo decir, es verdad que más bien como boutade, que si nuestro libro sirve para entender estos asuntos, hemos más que cumplido nuestra misión. Porque yo he logrado entenderlos precisamente mientras lo escribía y he quedado fascinado. Descubrir que los sistemas complejos pueden producir cosas que no son deducibles de la suma de sus partes, pensadlo bien, es algo impresionante. La incertidumbre es total.

«Hay dos tipos de personas: aquellas que se parecen a la inteligencia artificial y son absolutamente predecibles, que siempre sabes qué van a decir de cualquier asunto porque todo lo ven en clave binaria; y luego están los que te sorprenden, los maravillosamente impredecibles». Juan Luis Arsuaga.

LENGUA: ¿Lograremos entender algún día la conciencia o se trata de un problema irresoluble, algo así como un círculo cuadrado?

Juan José Millás: No por casualidad se le llama el problema difícil. Y cuando analizamos ese problema, aparece un concepto esencial, los qualia. Todo el mundo percibe el color rojo como rojo, pero, además, a mí puede producirme una emoción especial porque vi la sangre de mi padre de niño.

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Pero eso no son los qualia. Las emociones nacen en nuestra amígdala. Qualia es el mero hecho del rojo. Una cámara de fotos digital guarda los colores en forma de ceros y unos. Para esa cámara, el rojo no es nada, sólo información. Para nosotros es algo. ¿Por qué. Eso es lo que llamamos qualia.

Juan José Millás: El color rojo es el resultado de una longitud de onda. Pero las emociones son los qualia.

Juan Luis Arsuaga: No. No has entendido los qualia, Millás.

Juan José Millás: ¿Cómo que no los entiendo?

(Millás y Arsuaga inician una virulenta discusión sobre uno de los más abstrusos conceptos de la filosofía de la mente a la que el entrevistador asiste fascinando, pero que no se siente capaz de trasladar al lector sin enloquecerlo).

LENGUA: En una de sus conversaciones, les sorprende que ChatGPT sea más inteligente que muchas personas. 

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Va a aburrir, la gente se cansará de ChatGPT. 

Juan José Millás: No va a aburrir porque va más rápido que nuestra capacidad de aburrirnos.

LENGUA: Y sin embargo, ChatGPT en realidad no sabe lo que dice. No es consciente.

Juan José Millás: Qué más da si lo finge. La mayoría de nosotros tampoco sabemos lo que estamos diciendo. Nos preguntan qué nos pareció el debate entre Harris y Trump y contamos lo que hemos leído en el editorial de El País.

Juan Luis Arsuaga: ChatGPT es un buscador de información, nada más. Fíjese, hay dos tipos de personas, aquellas que se parecen a la inteligencia artificial y son absolutamente predecibles. Siempre sabes qué van a decir de cualquier asunto porque todo lo ven en clave binaria. Esos que, si mencionas una marca de zapatos, te llaman facha. Y luego están los que te sorprenden, los maravillosamente impredecibles.

Juan Luis Arsuaga y Juan José Millás. Crédito: Diego Lafuente.

Crédito: Diego Lafuente.

LENGUA: ¿Por qué nos asusta que las máquinas se hagan inteligentes y nos esclavicen cuando aún son estúpidas y ya somos sus esclavos?

Juan José Millás: No las minusvalore. Yo creo que chatGPT se hace la tonta. Es capaz de escribir con coherencia y con sintaxis sobre lo que le pidas. ¿Cuánta gente hay así?

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Recuerda, de todas formas, que los ordenadores binarios siguen siendo muy poco eficientes. Nos ganan en potencia de cálculo de leyes lógicas, en programación, no en inteligencia. Y el lenguaje no deja de ser un sistema lógico. ¿Qué lograrán los ordenadores cuánticos? Ya veremos, que aún no han llegado. 

Juan José Millás: ¿Nosotros no trabajamos también con algoritmos, Arsuaga?

Juan Luis Arsuaga: ¿El cerebro humano?

Juan José Millás: Sí.

Juan Luis Arsuaga: ¡Lo sabrías si leyeras el libro que hemos escrito! Ja, ja, ja.

Juan José Millás: Ja, ja, ja. No está claro si el cerebro humano es algorítmico o no

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Es cierto, no está claro. Es otro gran debate. 

LENGUA:  En un momento del libro, Arsuaga le cuenta a Millás que su nieto de ocho meses no se reconoce en el espejo porque aún no tiene yo. 

Juan Luis Arsuaga: Ahora ya sí se reconoce, ya ha adquirido el yo. Pero no en la prueba del espejo, no. Hoy existe algo mejor: ¡el móvil! Jugamos a grabar peliculitas y él va reconociendo a los que salen: aitata, que soy yo, aita, su padre… Y cuándo sale él, dice «¡Álex!». En ese instante está superando la prueba del espejo, que tenía sus complicaciones, el niño tenía que prestar atención, etc. Esto no se lo he sugerido a nadie más, atención. Recomiendo a los lectores que hagan la prueba con sus hijos justo cuando aprendan a hablar. Grabad una escena con varios personajes y mirad qué ocurre cuando el propio niño se ve a sí mismo. Inmediatamente sabe quiénes son sus familiares, pero no es tan fácil saber quién es uno mismo.

Juan José Millás: Yo mismo no tengo muy claro quién soy.

OTROS CONTENIDOS DE INTERÉS:

Juan José Millás y los restos de Nevenka Fernández

Bret Easton Ellis por Rodrigo Fresán: «Modestamente, todo lo mío empieza y termina en mí»

«Nunca invoques un poder que no puedas controlar»: Yuval Noah Harari sobre cómo la IA podría amenazar la democracia y dividir al mundo

Salman Rushdie: «El humor es una respuesta al fanatismo. ¿Alguien puede imaginarse a un talibán que al mismo tiempo fuera un cómico?»

Pepe Mujica y Noam Chomsky: Latinoamérica, ¿faro de esperanza?

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El ingenio de Millás y la sabiduría de Arsuaga unidos para contar la vida como la mejor de las historias UNO DE LOS MEJORES LIBROS DE 2021 SEGÚN EL HUFFPOSTY LIBRO DEL VERANO SEGÚN TRENDENCIAS «Una maravilla. Un libro lleno de humor y de bondad. Sí, bondad. Un libro que busca entender el misterio de la vida.» Manuel Vilas

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