Pepe Mujica y Noam Chomsky: Latinoamérica, ¿faro de esperanza?

{"id":1614,"id_simpleblog_post":"1614","id_simpleblog_category":"66","id_simpleblog_post_type":"1","id_simpleblog_author":"0","author":"Sa\u00fal Alv\u00eddrez","author_url":"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/219461-saul-alvidrez","likes":"0","views":"7483","allow_comments":"2","is_featured":"1","access":"a:6:{i:1;b:1;i:2;b:1;i:3;b:1;i:4;b:0;i:5;b:0;i:6;b:0;}","cover":"jpg","featured":"jpg","id_product":"325858,325875,325899","id_category_tematica":"116108,60,116110,116104","id_category_autor":"947,219461","id_category_editorial":"11355","id_event":"0","active":"1","title":"Pepe Mujica y Noam Chomsky: Latinoam\u00e9rica, \u00bffaro de esperanza?","meta_title":"Pepe Mujica y Noam Chomsky: Latinoam\u00e9rica, \u00bffaro de esperanza?","meta_description":"En las siguientes l\u00edneas, un extracto de \u00abChomsky & Mujica: Sobreviviendo al siglo XXI\u00bb, los dos pensadores conversan sobre el papel de Am\u00e9rica Latina en el tablero internacional: de las consecuencias del cambio clim\u00e1tico a los males de la pol\u00edtica.","meta_keywords":"Revista LENGUA, Noam Chomsky, Pepe Mujica, ","short_content":"<p>Fascinado por sus planteamientos pol\u00edticos y por su filosof\u00eda de vida, el documentalista y activista mexicano Sa\u00fal Alv\u00eddrez ha estado estudiando durante a\u00f1os la obra de Jos\u00e9 Pepe Mujica, expresidente de Uruguay, y de Noam Chomsky, el que es posiblemente el intelectual vivo m\u00e1s influyente de nuestros tiempos. Empujado por esta pasi\u00f3n, Alv\u00eddrez se propuso reunirles y generar el clima propicio para el intercambio fecundo de ideas. Y lo consigui\u00f3: en julio de 2017, Chomsky y a su esposa, Valeria Wasserman, acompa\u00f1aron Alv\u00eddrez y a su equipo a pasar un fin de semana a la casa de la familia Mujica Topolansky, en Uruguay. Del encuentro, claro, surgieron reflexiones e ideas que dan contexto y respuestas al mundo actual. En las siguientes l\u00edneas, apenas un extracto de un libro portentoso (\u00abChomsky &amp; Mujica: Sobreviviendo al siglo XXI\u00bb, Debate, 2023), los dos pensadores conversan sobre el papel de Am\u00e9rica Latina en este tablero internacional: de las consecuencias del cambio clim\u00e1tico a los males de la pol\u00edtica, la corrupci\u00f3n, los populismos y la crisis del capitalismo.<\/p>","full_content":"","content":"[{\"id\":\"cpxo8jd\",\"elType\":\"section\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_layout\":\"\",\"stretch_section\":\"\",\"layout\":\"boxed\",\"content_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"gap\":\"default\",\"height\":\"default\",\"custom_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":400},\"column_position\":\"middle\",\"content_position\":\"\",\"structure\":\"10\",\"section_background\":\"\",\"background_background\":\"\",\"background_color\":\"\",\"background_color_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":0},\"background_color_b\":\"\",\"background_color_b_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"background_gradient_type\":\"linear\",\"background_gradient_angle\":{\"unit\":\"deg\",\"size\":180},\"background_gradient_position\":\"center 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style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/219461-saul-alvidrez\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Sa\u00fal Alv\u00eddrez<\/a>:<\/span><\/strong> Ante este escenario [socioecon\u00f3mico global], \u00bfqu\u00e9 papel juega Latinoam\u00e9rica?\u00a0<\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><strong><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/947-noam-chomsky\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Noam Chomsky:<\/a><\/strong><\/span> Bueno, si observamos el per\u00edodo neoliberal, que b\u00e1sicamente comenz\u00f3 con Reagan, <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/caparros-por-villoro\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Am\u00e9rica Latina fue la primera gran v\u00edctima de los programas de reformas estructurales neoliberales<\/a><\/span>, que devastaron el continente en las d\u00e9cadas de los ochenta y noventa; se las llam\u00f3 <em>d\u00e9cadas perdidas.<\/em> Esto fue realizado por el Consenso de Washington y administrado por el FMI, que b\u00e1sicamente es una sucursal del Departamento de Estado de los Estados Unidos. Ustedes [Pepe y Sa\u00fal] ya conocen las consecuencias de esos a\u00f1os. Sin embargo, Am\u00e9rica Latina fue tambi\u00e9n la primera regi\u00f3n del mundo en emerger de esta situaci\u00f3n, junto con Asia del este tras su colapso financiero en 1997, al tiempo que se alejaba del Consenso de Washington y del FMI. A principios de este siglo, los gobiernos progresistas en Am\u00e9rica Latina tomaron medidas significativas para revertir las desastrosas consecuencias de este per\u00edodo. Una de ellas fue de hecho expulsar al FMI, que ya no otorga tantos pr\u00e9stamos a Am\u00e9rica Latina y ahora est\u00e1 m\u00e1s concentrado en Europa, lo que implica excluir al Departamento del Tesoro estadounidense, que se encargaba del sistema global.\u00a0<\/p><p>Esto ocurri\u00f3 en varios pa\u00edses, y algunos de ellos aplicaron medidas para reducir la pobreza de manera importante, aumentaron las oportunidades de educaci\u00f3n y fortalecieron los derechos civiles. En gran medida bajo el liderazgo de Lula en Brasil, se hicieron esfuerzos internacionales para intentar modificar el orden internacional y as\u00ed darle una voz m\u00e1s importante al sur global. As\u00ed se formaron los BRICS, por ejemplo, un bloque separado del consenso de Washington e iniciado principalmente por Lula. Estos fueron cambios significativos para modificar la estructura de toma de decisiones a escala mundial, que implicaron una mejora sustancial. 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de los principales problemas en Am\u00e9rica Latina es la falta de capacidad y liderazgo de izquierda para mitigar los severos <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/el-fixer-narco-miguel-angel-vega\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">niveles de corrupci\u00f3n end\u00e9micos<\/a><\/span>. Por otro lado, Am\u00e9rica Latina tiene muchos recursos, pero esos recursos se han utilizado tradicionalmente para enriquecer a un min\u00fasculo sector de la poblaci\u00f3n y a inversionistas extranjeros. Este es el otro gran error que ha minado su desarrollo: en todos estos a\u00f1os Am\u00e9rica Latina ha continuado, aun bajo los gobiernos de izquierda, con un modelo de b\u00e1sicamente producir y exportar productos primarios, incentivados tambi\u00e9n por la tentaci\u00f3n \u2014que debieron haber resistido\u2014 de satisfacer el creciente apetito de materias primas que representa China. De modo que Am\u00e9rica Latina se concentr\u00f3 en explotar la soja, el hierro, etc\u00e9tera, lo cual significa, por supuesto, importar inmensas cantidades de productos manufacturados por China a precio muy bajo, lo que destruye las incipientes industrias locales. As\u00ed es como terminas teniendo pa\u00edses basados en la exportaci\u00f3n de productos primarios e importaciones de productos manufacturados fuera, socavando la industria local, que es incapaz de competir y desarrollarse. Esto es algo que ha pasado durante siglos en Am\u00e9rica Latina y desafortunadamente continu\u00f3 con los gobiernos de izquierda; incluso en algunos casos esta tendencia aument\u00f3. Todo esto representa problemas muy importantes, aunque pueden ser superados.\u00a0<\/p><p>Resulta sorprendente comparar Am\u00e9rica Latina con Asia del este en t\u00e9rminos econ\u00f3micos. David F\u00e9lix, por ejemplo, un economista internacional, ha hecho estudios al respecto. Am\u00e9rica Latina tiene enormes ventajas en comparaci\u00f3n con el Sudeste asi\u00e1tico, y seg\u00fan est\u00e1ndares objetivos deber\u00eda estar mucho m\u00e1s adelantada. Am\u00e9rica Latina tiene una gran riqueza de recursos naturales, Asia del este no; Am\u00e9rica Latina no tiene enemigos externos, el este de Asia s\u00ed. Estas son diferencias sustanciales, pero las pol\u00edticas que se han seguido en Asia desde los a\u00f1os cincuenta son muy diferentes a las de Am\u00e9rica Latina, que continu\u00f3 con su dedicada tradici\u00f3n de seguir beneficiando al min\u00fasculo sector de riqueza extrema. Las importaciones en Am\u00e9rica Latina son de bienes de lujo, mientras que las de Asia del este son importaciones de bienes de capital para su desarrollo. 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style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/literatura\/La-campana-carlos-fuentes\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">La estructura de clases en Am\u00e9rica Latina<\/a><\/span> \u2014ustedes lo saben mejor que yo\u2014 est\u00e1 configurada con una gran desigualdad; la concentraci\u00f3n de riqueza es extrema. M\u00e1s all\u00e1 de buscar c\u00f3mo no pagar impuestos, a los sectores ricos de pa\u00edses latinoamericanos no les interesa en absoluto el desarrollo de su pa\u00eds; \u00fanicamente les interesa seguir enriqueci\u00e9ndose. En el este de Asia esto est\u00e1 muy controlado y las consecuencias son sorprendentes. Corea del Sur, por ejemplo, que en los a\u00f1os cincuenta estaba a la altura de un pa\u00eds pobre de \u00c1frica, hoy en d\u00eda es una gran potencia industrial, mientras que en Am\u00e9rica Latina eso no sucede. Hubo s\u00ed cambios importantes durante la primera parte de este siglo, como hemos visto, pero se deben profundizar estos cambios y transformar Am\u00e9rica Latina en una regi\u00f3n democr\u00e1tica m\u00e1s equitativa y capaz de controlar su propio destino. 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prospectos crees que tenga Latinoam\u00e9rica ante <a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/harari-sandel\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\">esta regresi\u00f3n [de gobiernos de izquierda] que se ha estado dando<\/span>?<\/a> [Esta conversaci\u00f3n ocurri\u00f3 en 2017]<\/p><p><strong>Pepe Mujica:<\/strong> Hay una tendencia fuerte a agredir y a barrer algunas conquistas sociales que, aun siendo relativas, eran importantes, como derechos laborales, seguridad para los movimientos sindicales, herramientas de autodefensa de los trabajadores. Me parece que hoy todo eso est\u00e1 en juego en todos los pa\u00edses de Am\u00e9rica. Hay una tendencia a cambiar una serie de conquistas que hab\u00edan conseguido los movimientos sindicales, los trabajadores, que les permit\u00edan estar un poco en mejores condiciones para su disputa por el capital y el ingreso nacional. En toda Am\u00e9rica se tiende a recortar ahora, a ir para atr\u00e1s.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfCu\u00e1les crees que sean las posibles fuentes de oposici\u00f3n a la actual regresi\u00f3n y represi\u00f3n?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Creo que vamos a sufrir todav\u00eda un poco m\u00e1s, pero de todas maneras la resistencia va a continuar porque ellos [la derecha] no pueden arreglar los problemas de fondo.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfCu\u00e1les consideras las principales fuentes potenciales de resistencia?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> \u00a1Los trabajadores y la gente joven! El capitalismo, en esta propia etapa, necesita cada vez m\u00e1s de universitarios. Esa batalla creciente en el seno del estudiantado es un foco de resistencia, contradictorio para ellos. Pasa en el mundo: pasa en Turqu\u00eda, pasa en Jap\u00f3n, pasa en Europa, pasa en M\u00e9xico\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> En cuanto a la clase trabajadora, los sindicatos, el movimiento obrero, \u00bfves alguna se\u00f1al de que ellos sean tambi\u00e9n un foco de resistencia?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> \u00a1Tambi\u00e9n! En Brasil es un foco de resistencia, en Uruguay tambi\u00e9n. Muy fuerte en el Uruguay.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfY qu\u00e9 tal en Argentina?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> En Argentina es muy fuerte tambi\u00e9n, aunque <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/tomas-eloy-martinez-santa-evita\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">tiene una tradici\u00f3n peronista que es ecl\u00e9ctica<\/a><\/span>. Pero existe.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfExiste alg\u00fan tipo de interacci\u00f3n entre el movimiento obrero brasile\u00f1o, el argentino y el uruguayo?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Hay buena relaci\u00f3n entre Uruguay y parte del movimiento sindical brasilero, y parte del argentino tambi\u00e9n.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Cuando fuiste presidente, \u00bftrabajaste en desarrollar esas relaciones?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> S\u00ed, s\u00ed. Nosotros creemos que en Am\u00e9rica del Sur la batalla por la integraci\u00f3n es central y tiene un camino: primero las universidades, integrar la inteligencia, y segundo los movimientos obreros; despu\u00e9s la econom\u00eda.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfY hay alg\u00fan avance en esas direcciones o son solo aspiraciones hacia el futuro?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Nosotros tenemos una relaci\u00f3n permanente, la cultivamos y nos apoyamos. Es una coordinaci\u00f3n de nuestras delegaciones que van a la OIT, que se mueven en el mundo. Por ejemplo, hace dos meses tuvimos un congreso en Chile; yo fui. Estamos luchando por conseguir la secretar\u00eda de la OIT con el apoyo de todos los latinoamericanos. Tratamos de tener una pol\u00edtica coordinada y hay muchas dificultades, pero no queda otro camino. Nuestro movimiento sindical no est\u00e1 subordinado a lo pol\u00edtico, a los partidos, pero tampoco es independiente. Es decir, no es neutral entre izquierda y derecha; tiene una clara definici\u00f3n de izquierda y no de subordinaci\u00f3n, una visi\u00f3n de izquierda clara.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Ahora, \u00bfqu\u00e9 pasa con la integraci\u00f3n entre los pa\u00edses?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Eso ha tenido dificultades, muchas. Porque las preocupaciones nacionales llenan de urgencia a los gobiernos y el problema de la integraci\u00f3n se va posponiendo.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfQu\u00e9 piensas del futuro de UNASUR y CELAC durante este per\u00edodo de regresi\u00f3n? \u00bfColapsar\u00e1n o seguir\u00e1n funcionando?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Ahora van a quedar un poco congeladas. En Am\u00e9rica Latina inventamos instituciones y despu\u00e9s las dejamos congeladas y hacemos otras.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Entonces, \u00bfcrees que estas organizaciones desaparecer\u00e1n y aparecer\u00e1n otras nuevas en su lugar? \u00bfO la UNASUR y la CELAC se revitalizar\u00e1n?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Yo creo que van a quedar congeladas por un tiempo, y lo que pase despu\u00e9s depender\u00e1 de la situaci\u00f3n pol\u00edtica que se d\u00e9 en Am\u00e9rica. Pero no van a desaparecer.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfEst\u00e1n realmente funcionando de alguna manera?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Algo funcionan, burocr\u00e1ticamente.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Luc\u00eda [<\/strong><b>Topolansky, esposa de Pepe Mujica]:<\/b>\u00a0Depende mucho de lo que pase en las elecciones presidenciales en Brasil. [En 2022, Luiz In\u00e1cio <em>Lula<\/em> da Silva volvi\u00f3 a ser elegido presidente de Brasil].<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Brasil no se ve muy bien en este momento.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Est\u00e1 muy complicado Brasil.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfEst\u00e1s manteniendo contacto con Lula?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> S\u00ed, estuve hace poco all\u00e1, y hay una situaci\u00f3n\u2026 Yo creo que le van a hacer la guerra para que no pueda ser candidato.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Esa es tu opini\u00f3n tambi\u00e9n, Valeria [Wasserman, esposa de Noam Chomsky].\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Buscar\u00e1n una forma jur\u00eddica de bloquearlo.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bf\u00c9l [Lula] se siente confiado en que podr\u00e1 superar esta crisis?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> \u00c9l tiene un car\u00e1cter de luchador; no se va a entregar, va a seguir luchando. A \u00e9l como persona le hace bien todo esto, rejuvenece con la lucha. A Lula en el poder lo rodea la burocracia; Lula en la oposici\u00f3n se recuesta en el pueblo, en su gente.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Entonces, \u00bfcu\u00e1l es tu expectativa de lo que suceder\u00e1 en Brasil?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> No s\u00e9. Es muy dif\u00edcil, porque Brasil es muy contradictorio. Lo que s\u00e9 es que [Lula] tiene una influencia brutal.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Valeria es muy pesimista sobre las posibilidades de que en Brasil\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Pero nunca la derecha va a ganar totalmente, porque tampoco la izquierda gana totalmente. Es un vaiv\u00e9n.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfCrees que existe la posibilidad de otro golpe militar en Brasil?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> No. Los jueces.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Vaya, t\u00fa tambi\u00e9n opinas lo mismo [le dice sorprendido Chomsky a Valeria].\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> M\u00e1s bien. Ahora la moral viene por los jueces, por los no comprometidos.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Igual opina Valeria.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Yo tambi\u00e9n lo veo por ah\u00ed, pero\u2026 <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/Antonio-Scurati-Pablo-Simon-Mussolini-Fascismo\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">tiene algo de fascismo<\/a><\/span>.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Me parece una descripci\u00f3n muy v\u00e1lida.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> La moralina [de los conservadores], los puros.<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> El PT [Partido de los Trabajadores] sacrific\u00f3 una oportunidad real. \u00bfCrees que sacrifiquen una enorme oportunidad cayendo \u2014de nuevo\u2014 en la trampa de la corrupci\u00f3n, la mala planificaci\u00f3n econ\u00f3mica y la falta de enfoque para diversificar la econom\u00eda?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Pienso que el aliado m\u00e1s grande que tiene el capitalismo en esta etapa es la cultura que ha generado. Eso penetra en la sociedad y tambi\u00e9n est\u00e1 prendido en el com\u00fan de la gente de izquierda.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Entonces, \u00bfno se ve ninguna alternativa?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Yo creo que aparecen alternativas, aparecen. No todo es tan negro. Porque hay mucha gente joven, y hay gente que ha vivido y est\u00e1 de vuelta.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfExiste una conciencia general de las alternativas? \u00bfExiste conciencia entre los segmentos de la poblaci\u00f3n de que las alternativas se pueden construir?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Parcialmente existe. Existen corrientes que enfilan [orientan].\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfQu\u00e9 piensas sobre el espacio cruzado para el MST [Movimiento de los Trabajadores Rurales Sin Tierra] en Brasil? \u00bfCrees que es una posibilidad de resistencia?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> S\u00ed, es un movimiento muy interesante, que no prescinde de la lucha. Hay una parte que es lo mejor del MST, de izquierda. Me parece que est\u00e1n bien ubicados y que tienen posibilidad de movilizaci\u00f3n. Yo no veo que est\u00e9 todo perdido, veo que hay una lucha dif\u00edcil, pero en Am\u00e9rica hemos tenido momentos mucho m\u00e1s dif\u00edciles. Estar huyendo de una dictadura, por ejemplo. Veo que estamos en problemas, pero no estamos perdidos.<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Bueno, eso es seguro. \u00bfCrees que los logros del Gobierno de Lula en la reducci\u00f3n de la pobreza y en la educaci\u00f3n, entre otros, se mantendr\u00e1n bajo esta regresi\u00f3n?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> No, va a haber una regresi\u00f3n ahora. Existe una tendencia regresiva en temas como la estabilidad laboral, los derechos laborales, el Estado de bienestar, etc\u00e9tera, y esto se ve ya en todo el mundo; es fuerte tambi\u00e9n en Europa. Entonces, creo que vamos a asistir a un per\u00edodo de mucha convulsi\u00f3n. Y las reformas de Macron en Francia no van a ser f\u00e1ciles tampoco.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Bueno, durante algunos a\u00f1os parec\u00eda que Am\u00e9rica Latina podr\u00eda ser un faro de esperanza y una regi\u00f3n l\u00edder en este esfuerzo mundial. Por eso la regresi\u00f3n en Am\u00e9rica Latina es un fen\u00f3meno tan grave. Es muy trascendente recuperar lo que se logr\u00f3, pues, por ahora, al menos brevemente, mucho se ha perdido.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> S\u00ed, pienso que la historia del hombre es eso. Izquierda y derecha son t\u00e9rminos muy cercanos, muy de la Revoluci\u00f3n francesa para ac\u00e1, pero en realidad siempre en la historia humana ha habido una cara equitativa y por la civilizaci\u00f3n, y tambi\u00e9n una cara conservadora. Yo creo que la lucha va a continuar y tengo confianza: nunca vamos a triunfar al cien por ciento, pero nunca nos van a vencer tampoco; apenas subimos unos escalones. El pr\u00f3ximo gran l\u00edo en Am\u00e9rica est\u00e1 en la Argentina.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfArgentina? \u00bfPor qu\u00e9 lo dices?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> El movimiento peronista es muy fuerte, tiene una base social muy fuerte. Cuando est\u00e1 en el gobierno se divide; cuando est\u00e1 en la oposici\u00f3n se aglutina, y cuando est\u00e1 aglutinado es insoportable.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00bfCrees que quedar\u00e1 algo de los esfuerzos de los trabajadores argentinos para tomar f\u00e1bricas y otras empresas, y que esto pueda desarrollarse?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> S\u00ed, s\u00ed, s\u00ed. Y se va a poner violento. En el Uruguay no creo que sea tan dram\u00e1tico. El Uruguay es un pa\u00eds\u2026 No es reaccionario, es una penillanura\u2026 Todo es suave, m\u00e1s suave [dice sonriendo].\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong>\u00a0Est\u00e1bamos ya por Latinoam\u00e9rica y sus gobiernos progresistas. Sus aciertos, sus errores, su futuro\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong>\u00a0Yo creo que lo de ellos [N\u00e9stor Kirchner, Hugo Ch\u00e1vez, Rafael Correa, Evo Morales y otros] tiene importancia en el futuro de Am\u00e9rica. Y Evo ha sido muy buen administrador, tiene una econom\u00eda muy equilibrada. Bolivia ha pegado un avance importante con respecto a lo que era.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00bfY crees que eso sea sostenible?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong>\u00a0S\u00ed, s\u00ed.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong>\u00a0El siguiente problema en Colombia es si las comunidades que han estado algo protegidas por la existencia de las FARC, incluso si se opusieron a las FARC, pueden sobrevivir a las invasiones de las corporaciones mineras internacionales y los agronegocios que hab\u00edan sido frenados por la guerra de guerrillas. He estado en el sur de Colombia trabajando con algunas de estas comunidades. Esto me preocupa mucho.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong>\u00a0S\u00ed, ese es un peligro. Y si el proceso de paz no va acompa\u00f1ado de una pol\u00edtica de tierras y de promoci\u00f3n de la vida campesina, es muy dif\u00edcil que la paz se pueda firmar en Colombia, porque hay muchos intereses a favor de mantener el conflicto.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong>\u00a0Visit\u00e9 varias veces una comunidad muy pobre, una comunidad muy remota en La Vega, en el sur de Colombia. Cuando te acercas al pueblo hay un cementerio peque\u00f1o, solo cruces; es un cementerio simple de personas que fueron asesinadas por los paramilitares. Ellos consideran a las FARC como un enemigo m\u00e1s, pero est\u00e1n tratando de proteger sus recursos hidrol\u00f3gicos y otros de la invasi\u00f3n de las corporaciones mineras, que fueron retenidas por el conflicto. Temen que con el proceso de paz pierdan la capacidad de proteger sus propios recursos de las grandes multinacionales que hab\u00edan sido expulsadas por el conflicto. Es un problema muy grave, en muchas partes de Colombia.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong>\u00a0As\u00ed es, y necesitaremos acuerdos regionales y globales para generar esas condiciones. \u00bfC\u00f3mo podemos construir esos acuerdos?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong>\u00a0Creo que podemos hacerlo con las oportunidades disponibles. Por ejemplo, pensemos en Latinoam\u00e9rica durante el per\u00edodo de los diez o quince a\u00f1os de progreso real con gobiernos de izquierda; ah\u00ed se dieron pasos hacia acuerdos regionales. Por ejemplo, la decisi\u00f3n de excluir a FMI de Latinoam\u00e9rica fue un acuerdo regional que es muy positivo; eso [el FMI] es el Departamento del Tesoro de los Estados Unidos. El acuerdo para eliminar bases militares estadounidenses fue un gran acuerdo. La CELAC nunca funcion\u00f3 realmente, pero la idea era muy buena: liberar a Latinoam\u00e9rica de los Estados Unidos y Canad\u00e1 y avanzar hacia el tipo de programas que realmente se necesitan en la regi\u00f3n. Y todo esto puede extenderse. La Uni\u00f3n Europea, con todos sus defectos, tiene grandes aportes. Despu\u00e9s de todo, esta es la primera vez en cientos de a\u00f1os que los pa\u00edses europeos no se dedican a destruirse unos a otros, y ese no es un cambio menor. Eso se puede seguir desarrollando; hay muchas oportunidades para hacerlo, pero se requerir\u00e1 mucho compromiso popular y activismo para avanzar en esa direcci\u00f3n. Pongamos como ejemplo el Acuerdo de Par\u00eds sobre el Calentamiento Global, que de ninguna manera es suficiente, pero es el primer acuerdo global importante para hacer algo serio sobre un problema trascendente en el mundo, o el Tratado de Prohibici\u00f3n Completa de Pruebas, que prohibi\u00f3 las pruebas nucleares bajo amenaza. 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Don Pepe, con relaci\u00f3n a los acuerdos regionales y hablando de Latinoam\u00e9rica en particular, \u00bfqu\u00e9 nos puede decir del proceso de integraci\u00f3n?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Pienso que indirectamente la pol\u00edtica del se\u00f1or Trump nos va a ayudar un poquito, porque est\u00e1 aislando a Estados Unidos, tendiendo a encerrarlo. Y eso se ha reflejado en Europa tambi\u00e9n. Europa est\u00e1 intentando acercarse a Latinoam\u00e9rica, y Latinoam\u00e9rica tiende a acercarse entre s\u00ed. Ya no es un problema de izquierda solamente; es un problema de casi todos, porque la presencia de una China demandante y compradora en Am\u00e9rica Latina cada vez es m\u00e1s fuerte y evidente, y para nosotros es bueno, aunque es peligroso.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> \u00a1Muy peligroso!\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Necesitamos otro platillo [mercado], y ese platillo puede ser Europa. Hay que darle pelota a \u00c1frica tambi\u00e9n, hay que ponerle mucha atenci\u00f3n a \u00c1frica. \u00a1\u00c1frica es un volc\u00e1n!, para el bien y para el mal, para todo. No podemos vivir de espaldas a \u00c1frica. Brasil se dio cuenta en su momento, le empez\u00f3 a dar pelota. Cuba se desangr\u00f3 por \u00c1frica; all\u00e1 tiene un prestigio incre\u00edble. Vinieron los presidentes al funeral de Fidel; la cantidad de africanos era impresionante, y <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/pe\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/el-mapa-de-sal-ivan-de-la-nuez\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">mir\u00e1 que Cuba es chiquita<\/a><\/span>. Nigeria es un pa\u00eds que, si sigue con esa tasa, va a alcanzar dentro de unos a\u00f1os a China, \u00a1una cosa impresionante!, y la aristocracia nigeriana consume carne inglesa y quesos franceses. \u00a1La puta madre que los pari\u00f3! \u00bfTe das cuenta? Incluso como mercado, te digo\u2026 Porque nos creemos que el \u00fanico mercado est\u00e1 en el norte. Miremos un poco el resto del mundo.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Latinoam\u00e9rica ya ha sufrido esos peligros; es una de las cosas que socavaron a Brasil, por ejemplo. El hecho de que China estuviera dispuesta a comprar masivamente productos primarios desorient\u00f3 seriamente al Partido de los Trabajadores en Brasil. Igual los Kirchner en Argentina, que en lugar de diversificar su econom\u00eda se concentraron en la exportaci\u00f3n de productos primarios, lo que, por supuesto, signific\u00f3 importar bienes manufacturados baratos que socavaron sus industrias manufactureras nacionales, y lo mismo sucedi\u00f3 en Venezuela. El resultado es que las econom\u00edas ahora son de alguna manera m\u00e1s primitivas que antes del per\u00edodo de crecimiento y desarrollo de los \u00faltimos diez o quince a\u00f1os, todo por permitir que el apetito chino por bienes primarios socavara sus propias econom\u00edas. Estos son peligros que simplemente hay que superar.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Por eso necesitamos integraci\u00f3n entre nosotros y otras alternativas.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> S\u00ed, \u00a1definitivamente!\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Es cierto, ese es el peligro.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Don Pepe, \u00bfpor qu\u00e9 la integraci\u00f3n podr\u00eda significar una alternativa a todo esto?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Porque es indispensable tener una escala t\u00e9cnica, una escala cient\u00edfica y una escala de masa [poblaci\u00f3n] que pueda hacer frente a lo que es el mundo de hoy, un mundo que se configura en grandes bloques pol\u00edticos y econ\u00f3micos; esa es la \u00fanica manera de competir. Pero hay que juntar esa fuerza, porque los latinoamericanos llegamos tarde y venimos corriendo de atr\u00e1s. Ellos en el norte nos llevan una ventaja enorme en el campo de la investigaci\u00f3n y del conocimiento. Hay que integrar las universidades latinoamericanas, hay que integrar la inteligencia, tu generaci\u00f3n [dice observando a Sa\u00fal]. Si no integramos la inteligencia, nunca vamos a integrar Am\u00e9rica. Y mir\u00e1, tal vez no exista sobre la tierra una potencial confluencia como la que representa Latinoam\u00e9rica. Estamos a enormes distancias y tenemos enormes diferencias, s\u00ed, pero tenemos el capital de una lengua com\u00fan y la historia de la Iglesia cat\u00f3lica; y mir\u00e1 que yo soy ateo, pero ha creado una tradici\u00f3n que est\u00e1 en la base de Am\u00e9rica, com\u00fan, y una lengua com\u00fan.\u00a0<\/p><p>No hay una agrupaci\u00f3n humana de las dimensiones de nuestra Am\u00e9rica Latina que tenga ese c\u00famulo de coincidencias y caracter\u00edsticas en com\u00fan, y eso es una riqueza invaluable. Porque esa riqueza estrat\u00e9gica no la tiene ni China, que tiene varios idiomas, aunque es un imperio de cinco mil a\u00f1os. Dentro de las desgracias, hemos heredado el mismo idioma \u2014porque el portugu\u00e9s [en Brasil] es un idioma distinto, pero no tanto si lo habl\u00e1s despacio\u2014. Es decir, tenemos muchas cosas en contra, s\u00ed, y nuestra balcanizaci\u00f3n est\u00e1 en la conciencia, porque al nacer Am\u00e9rica Latina cada puerto organiz\u00f3 un pa\u00eds, y nacimos conectados al mercado mundial sin conectarnos primero con nosotros mismos. Revertir ese proceso es un largu\u00edsimo cambio cultural, pero apuntemos a las universidades, apuntemos al foco de la inteligencia.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Creo que es una gran oportunidad, y creo que el 2018 y las circunstancias globales nos est\u00e1n empujando a la integraci\u00f3n regional, o por lo menos nos dan una posible luz.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Corr\u00edjanme si me equivoco, pero, que yo sepa, la UNASUR nunca asumi\u00f3 el problema de concentrarse en la exportaci\u00f3n de productos primarios e importar bienes de manufactura baratos, lo cual destruy\u00f3 las industrias manufactureras nacionales. \u00bfSe consider\u00f3 alguna vez?<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> No. Hubo mucho discurso, pero no pol\u00edtica. Los gobiernos est\u00e1n siempre preocupados por qui\u00e9n ganar\u00e1 las elecciones que vienen; los gobiernos en Latinoam\u00e9rica tienden a mirar a corto plazo y no ven lo importante a mediano y largo plazo. No somos chinos; estamos muy lejos de los chinos, que no tienen apuro y todo lo ven lejos [r\u00ede ir\u00f3nicamente].\u00a0<\/p><p>Hay cuatro pa\u00edses que son fundamentales para el proceso de integraci\u00f3n regional; por orden: Brasil, M\u00e9xico, Argentina y Colombia. Argentina, por ejemplo, no es tan prepotente en masa, pero es riqu\u00edsima, es una cosa espantosa de rica. Cuando estudi\u00e1s econom\u00eda ten\u00e9s que estudiar una econom\u00eda para el mundo, pero para entender la Argentina hay que estudiar otra econom\u00eda. Porque \u00bfsab\u00e9s lo que tiene la Argentina? Vas a Santa Fe y tiene nueve millones de hect\u00e1reas de suelo [clase] 1. \u00bfSab\u00e9s lo que es eso? Eso vale m\u00e1s que el petr\u00f3leo y que cualquier cosa. Es un suelo plano, dos metros y pico de la tierra m\u00e1s f\u00e9rtil que existe, inagotable, inagotable; eso le ha permitido a la Argentina hacer cualquier despelote, cualquier despilfarro. Produce comida para trescientos millones de habitantes, pero podr\u00eda producir para mil millones, tranquilamente. Existe una an\u00e9cdota popular del R\u00edo de la Plata que dice que cuando Dios estaba haciendo la Argentina le dio tantas cosas que san Pedro le dijo: \u00abNo, esper\u00e1, les est\u00e1s dando demasiado\u00bb. Y Dios le contest\u00f3: \u00abNo te preocupes; ah\u00ed voy a poner a los argentinos\u00bb [comienzan ambos a re\u00edr].\u00a0<\/p><p>Bueno, y Colombia\u2026 Tiene doce millones de campesinos pobres, veintid\u00f3s millones de obreros de los cuales con suerte habr\u00e1 un mill\u00f3n que se jubilen. El sesenta por ciento de la tierra no tiene t\u00edtulo de propiedad. Imaginate que tiene lugares como Chocondo, el lugar donde m\u00e1s llueve en el mundo. Un gigantesco invern\u00e1culo es aquello; tiene todo, todo\u2026 Hay incluso lugares de los bosques donde la luz del sol no llega abajo jam\u00e1s. Un emporio de la vida, \u00a1y los desaf\u00edos que conlleva\u2026! Hay lugares donde el gran problema de la guerrilla no son las balas, son las pestes; hay que tener antibi\u00f3ticos y esas cosas, porque es la vida en su m\u00e1xima expresi\u00f3n en todas las dimensiones. Eso es nuestra Am\u00e9rica.<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Sin duda. En particular, yo traigo a M\u00e9xico y a Brasil entre ceja y ceja.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Claro, mi preocupaci\u00f3n de siempre. Con eso me pas\u00e9 siempre llen\u00e1ndoles la cabeza [a los presidentes]. Con Pe\u00f1a Nieto com\u00ed cuando reci\u00e9n asumi\u00f3; \u00e9l vino a Chile y despu\u00e9s ac\u00e1, al Uruguay, y bueno, le pudr\u00ed la cabeza con que tratara de acercarse un poco a Brasil. Y en Brasil tambi\u00e9n los he jodido con que se dejen de desconfiar de M\u00e9xico. Cuanto m\u00e1s lejos estemos, peor estamos. Y M\u00e9xico, bueno, \u00a1qu\u00e9 desgracia!, sigue siendo cierta aquella afirmaci\u00f3n de Porfirio [D\u00edaz]: \u00abTan lejos de Dios y tan cerca de Estados Unidos\u00bb. \u00a1Por favor! M\u00e9xico pone los muertos y la plata se va para el norte, \u00a1porque el mercado de la droga est\u00e1 all\u00e1!\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Don Pepe, y la izquierda en M\u00e9xico, \u00bfc\u00f3mo la ve?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> \u00bfLa izquierda en M\u00e9xico? <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/mx\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/el-rey-del-cash-elena-chavez-anabel-hernandez\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">\u00bfQu\u00e9 me dices de L\u00f3pez Obrador?<\/a> <\/span><\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Me parece bien que haya hecho a un lado a los partidos pol\u00edticos de izquierda que ten\u00edamos; solo estaban ah\u00ed para hacerle el juego a la derecha. Si vemos las elecciones anteriores, tanto en el 2012 como en el 2006, esos partidos \u00abaliados\u00bb, como el PRD [Partido de la Revoluci\u00f3n Democr\u00e1tica], eran un lastre. Creo que L\u00f3pez Obrador se dio cuenta a tiempo de que hab\u00eda que crear un nuevo polo y cre\u00f3 su partido, morena. Creo que hizo bien. Y ahora vemos empresarios, diarios estadounidenses y dem\u00e1s se\u00f1ales que est\u00e1n diciendo \u00abva para all\u00e1\u00bb [en referencia al posible triunfo de L\u00f3pez Obrador en el 2018].\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Y el efecto Trump lo va a ayudar [a L\u00f3pez Obrador]; lo est\u00e1 empujando para all\u00e1.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> S\u00ed, y tambi\u00e9n lo ayuda Pe\u00f1a Nieto.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Tambi\u00e9n, claro, \u00a1se mand\u00f3 cada cagada\u2026!\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> En L\u00f3pez Obrador veo tres cosas que en M\u00e9xico me parecen muy poco comunes: es un tipo honesto, es un tipo comprometido y es un tipo con experiencia. Sin embargo, no soy de la idea de que \u00e9l va a ser la soluci\u00f3n absoluta; de ninguna manera.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> \u00a1No, claro que no! Ning\u00fan hombre solo.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Ning\u00fan hombre solo puede ser la soluci\u00f3n. Y s\u00ed, efectivamente, un gran problema en M\u00e9xico es la corrupci\u00f3n, como dice L\u00f3pez Obrador, pero para m\u00ed, en M\u00e9xico y en cualquier lado, el tema principal debe ser incrementar la participaci\u00f3n de la gente en las decisiones, como hemos estado diciendo, ampliar la participaci\u00f3n de la gente, la autodeterminaci\u00f3n colectiva. Entonces, ah\u00ed concentro yo mi atenci\u00f3n, pero con estas tres cosas que le veo a L\u00f3pez Obrador creo que es posible avanzar much\u00edsimo. Veamos qu\u00e9 pasa. Pero si \u00e9l no lo entiende esto, si no se suman L\u00f3pez Obrador y la izquierda en general a colocar como estrategia central el traspaso del poder de decisi\u00f3n a la gente, pues puede que ganen elecciones y tengamos algunos presidentes progresistas, pero en realidad as\u00ed nada va a cambiar nunca. Y lo peor es que esos presidentes progresistas son excepciones hist\u00f3ricas en M\u00e9xico; regularmente regresa la derecha y se instala durante d\u00e9cadas. Un factor in\u00e9dito e interesante en el electorado mexicano actual es que por primera vez ya todos saben que el PRI [Partido de la Revoluci\u00f3n Institucional] y el PAN [Partido Acci\u00f3n Nacional] son lo mismo. Ya vivieron setenta a\u00f1os del PRI, luego fue el PAN dos sexenios y vino el PRI de nuevo, con Pe\u00f1a Nieto, y ahora queda por primera vez algo totalmente claro: son lo mismo. Es la primera vez que el electorado mexicano tiene eso enfrente, y s\u00famese Trump, s\u00famese Pe\u00f1a Nieto, s\u00famese la ca\u00edda del peso mexicano, la violencia del narcotr\u00e1fico, la inmensa corrupci\u00f3n\u2026 En fin.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> S\u00ed, s\u00ed. Es muy serio.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Pero parece que M\u00e9xico est\u00e1 por cambiar, definitivamente. Algo va a pasar.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> S\u00ed, algo va a pasar.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> \u00bfCree usted que haya la posibilidad de una confluencia Lula-Obrador?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> S\u00ed, pienso que s\u00ed. Y es fundamental, nos jugamos la vida en eso. Yo soy muy amigo de Lula; a L\u00f3pez Obrador no lo conozco. Ahora que estuve en M\u00e9xico [octubre del 2016] no quise meterme, porque no hab\u00eda el panorama que hay hoy [enero del 2017]. Ahora est\u00e1 mucho m\u00e1s polarizado M\u00e9xico; tiene una velocidad de deterioro galopante.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Es que se ha acumulado la irritaci\u00f3n de una manera exagerada.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Un impresionante rasgo cultural de M\u00e9xico es que tiene una tradici\u00f3n de recoger gente y de aceptar gente que venga de todos lados. No s\u00e9 si fue aquello de C\u00e1rdenas recibiendo a un mill\u00f3n de espa\u00f1oles que qued\u00f3 como un sello de la cultura mexicana. Tuve much\u00edsimos compatriotas que vivieron en los tiempos de dictadura en M\u00e9xico y los trataron impecablemente, pero con una condici\u00f3n: \u00abNo te metas en la pol\u00edtica mexicana\u00bb. Eso tambi\u00e9n es caracter\u00edstico de M\u00e9xico; respeto y amparo, pero no te metas en la pol\u00edtica mexicana. Entonces yo trat\u00e9 de mantener esa distancia.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Pero \u00bfqu\u00e9 tal Felipe Calder\u00f3n? \u00c9l s\u00ed va y se mete en Venezuela y en todos lados.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Se mete en todos lados, s\u00ed; estamos sintonizados. Uno puede ser neutral hasta determinado momento, despu\u00e9s se acab\u00f3. Yo, por ejemplo, no me quiero meter en la pol\u00edtica brasilera, pero soy amigo de Lula. Y fijate que tengo admiraci\u00f3n por los mexicanos, aunque te parezca mentira, porque he visto la conducta de todos los latinoamericanos dentro de Estados Unidos, y los que mantienen su identidad son los mexicanos. Tal vez es la pata azteca, el sustrato ind\u00edgena que est\u00e1 ah\u00ed entreverado, no s\u00e9, pero M\u00e9xico tiene una fortaleza de cultura; hay un sello mexicano, a pesar de todos los pesares, porque lo agringaron y todo lo dem\u00e1s\u2026 Por eso aquello que dijo Porfirio: \u00ab\u00a1Pobre M\u00e9xico! Tan lejos de Dios\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> \u2026 y tan cerca de Estados Unidos\u00bb.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Es demasiado b\u00e1rbaro lo que hizo Estados Unidos con la historia de M\u00e9xico; eso es inolvidable para cualquier mexicano. Pero, bueno, vamos a ayudar lo que podamos. Y con Trump les quieren poner un muro, \u00bfno? [comienza a re\u00edr]. Me dec\u00edan en Tijuana hace poco: \u00abEl muro lo podemos hacer nosotros, y lo pagamos, pero vamos a hacerlo en la frontera vieja\u00bb [todos r\u00eden].\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Ah, bueno, as\u00ed s\u00ed. \u00a1Eso me parece genial!\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Tres d\u00f3lares cincuenta el salario por d\u00eda en la maquila en Tijuana. Con eso no paga ni media hora de un asalariado norteamericano. La puta madre.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Creo incluso que en M\u00e9xico tenemos el segundo salario m\u00ednimo m\u00e1s bajo de Latinoam\u00e9rica. Pero hay tanto dolor, tanto sufrimiento, tanto aplastamiento en el pueblo mexicano, que estamos en un cl\u00edmax.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Y todo esto es importante por Sanders, y porque por el a\u00f1o 2035 Estados Unidos va a ser la naci\u00f3n hispanohablante m\u00e1s grande del mundo. Hay una batalla de los vientres latinos en el norte.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Esa batalla s\u00ed la vamos ganando.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> Que es lo mismo que le va a pasar a Europa. Europa acaba caf\u00e9 con leche [r\u00ede]. Los atacan a los negros, pero no, no\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Y mientras tanto Latinoam\u00e9rica, con un mercado y fuerza de trabajo joven, una poblaci\u00f3n de m\u00e1s de seiscientos millones de habitantes, recursos naturales\u2026\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> \u00a1Tenemos coloso! Nosotros, en Uruguay, somos tres millones y medio de habitantes, pero este pa\u00eds produce comida para treinta millones de habitantes, y mal, sin mucho esfuerzo; podr\u00eda producir m\u00e1s. Es dif\u00edcil, es muy duro, es muy duro y va a haber muchos cataclismos y mucho dolor, pero hay esperanza tambi\u00e9n, hay esperanza.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Porque hay gente comprometida, Pepe, pero esto es importante que lo sepa tambi\u00e9n la gente joven, porque la integraci\u00f3n latinoamericana no va a venir as\u00ed por osmosis.<\/p><p><strong>Pepe:<\/strong> \u00a1Claro, no por \u00f3smosis! Porque cuando hablamos de la integraci\u00f3n latinoamericana estamos hablando de un cataclismo geopol\u00edtico, complejo pero urgente.\u00a0<\/p><p>***<\/p><p><strong>Sa\u00fal:<\/strong> Profesor Chomsky, en este contexto internacional, \u00bfqu\u00e9 podr\u00eda decirnos de M\u00e9xico y del proceso latinoamericano en general?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Noam:<\/strong> Bueno, pues tambi\u00e9n creo que la frase de Porfirio D\u00edaz sigue siendo cierta todav\u00eda. Estando tan cerca de Estados Unidos, M\u00e9xico fue atrapado y se integr\u00f3 al Tratado de Libre Comercio de Am\u00e9rica del Norte [TLCAN], y desde entonces tiene pr\u00e1cticamente la tasa de crecimiento m\u00e1s baja de Latinoam\u00e9rica. Su sector agr\u00edcola, por supuesto, fue arrasado, como se esperaba, y esto provoc\u00f3 un gran flujo de migrantes, personas que huyeron de las duras condiciones de vida.\u00a0<\/p><p>El problema del <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/el-fixer-narco-miguel-angel-vega\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">narcotr\u00e1fico en M\u00e9xico<\/a><\/span> tiene su base en los Estados Unidos. Tanto la demanda de drogas como la oferta de armas provienen en su mayor\u00eda de los Estados Unidos, pero a M\u00e9xico lo est\u00e1n haciendo pedazos. Mientras no se termine esa supuesta guerra contra las drogas que emprendieron los Estados Unidos y que es extremadamente da\u00f1ina en toda Latinoam\u00e9rica, pero particularmente en M\u00e9xico, hasta entonces M\u00e9xico seguir\u00e1 enfrentando problemas muy serios. En las cumbres regionales los pa\u00edses latinoamericanos mostraron esfuerzos por salir del contexto de la guerra contra las drogas de Estados Unidos. Uruguay ha dado algunos pasos significativos [legalizaci\u00f3n de la marihuana en el Gobierno de Mujica] y otros pa\u00edses tambi\u00e9n, pero M\u00e9xico no se ha sumado, y deber\u00eda hacerlo. Y s\u00ed, M\u00e9xico tiene muchos problemas internos, pero no son insuperables, aunque va a ser muy duro.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"60\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"o67vs8l\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p class=\\\"MsoNormal\\\"><strong>M\u00c1S CONTENIDOS DE INTER\u00c9S:<\/strong><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/el-fixer-narco-miguel-angel-vega\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Contacto en M\u00e9xico: vida y muertes del \u00abfixer\u00bb, el enlace entre la prensa extranjera y los capos narco<\/a><\/span><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/11-de-septiembre-de-1973-pinochet-salvador-allende-chile\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Chile, 11 de septiembre de 1973: cr\u00f3nica de un pa\u00eds en el abismo<\/a><\/span><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/victor-jara-un-canto-vivo-mario-amoros\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">V\u00edctor Jara, un canto vivo<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/John-Dinges-Plan-Condor\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">El Plan C\u00f3ndor, un fantasma que recorre el mundo<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/fernando-butazzoni-las-cenizas-del-condor\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">O\u00edr su voz: el Plan C\u00f3ndor en un casete<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/literatura\/La-campana-carlos-fuentes\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">La campa\u00f1a de Carlos Fuentes y las revoluciones latinoamericanas: la aventura contin\u00faa<\/a><\/span><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/isabel-allende-bussi-golpe-de-estado-chile-salvador-allende\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">El \u00faltimo abrazo de mi padre: Isabel Allende Bussi a 50 a\u00f1os del golpe de Estado<\/a><\/span><\/span><\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"20\",\"right\":\"20\",\"bottom\":\"20\",\"left\":\"20\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"solid\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"1\",\"right\":\"1\",\"bottom\":\"1\",\"left\":\"1\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"20\",\"right\":\"20\",\"bottom\":\"20\",\"left\":\"20\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"nxsz5kd\",\"elType\":\"section\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_layout\":\"\",\"stretch_section\":\"section-stretched\",\"layout\":\"full_width\",\"content_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"gap\":\"default\",\"height\":\"default\",\"custom_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":400},\"column_position\":\"middle\",\"content_position\":\"\",\"structure\":\"10\",\"section_background\":\"\",\"background_background\":\"\",\"background_color\":\"\",\"background_color_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":0},\"background_color_b\":\"\",\"background_color_b_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"background_gradient_type\":\"linear\",\"background_gradient_angle\":{\"unit\":\"deg\",\"size\":180},\"background_gradient_position\":\"center 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