Entrevistas

Caparrós por Villoro: «No hablemos de "alephes"» o cómo narrar la totalidad

Hace cuatro años, Martín Caparrós se propuso la hercúlea tarea de entender qué y cómo es exactamente la región donde 20 países y 400 millones de personas comparten una lengua, una historia y una cultura. Las casi 700 páginas de «Ñamérica» son el fresco extraordinario con que intenta responder esas preguntas. Carnavales y narcos, migrantes y corruptos, libros y reguetón, revoluciones, fútbol y comidas. Pero también la tentación de lo folklórico, la paradoja de la violencia, las explicaciones demagógicas, los entrevistados fortuitos, el dios que un indígena sueña con forma de radio gigante y los dos fantasmas que recorren su libro: Borges y García Márquez. En esta conversación con Juan Villoro, el mismo Caparrós recorre la trastienda de este libro que escribió en tres años pero investigó sin saberlo durante décadas.

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de las experiencias m\u00e1s singulares de\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/escritoras-latinoamericanas\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Am\u00e9rica Latina<\/a><\/span> es entrar a una peque\u00f1a droguer\u00eda colombiana. En ese resumen del mundo resulta l\u00f3gico pedir hilo de coser, un paraguas, antibi\u00f3ticos, helados, regalos y un corta\u00fa\u00f1as. Si en su novela La historia, Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s cre\u00f3 el mito de fundaci\u00f3n de un pa\u00eds, en <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/economia-politica-y-actualidad\/255238-libro-namerica-9788439738015\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"><em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em><\/a><\/span> ofrece el mapa social y sentimental de un continente entero. Enamorado de la totalidad, sigue un principio de composici\u00f3n que en la teor\u00eda\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/literatura-contemporanea\/35941-libro-el-aleph-9788499089515\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">se desprende del aleph de Borges<\/a><\/span> y en la pr\u00e1ctica de las droguer\u00edas donde no falta nada.\u00a0<\/p><p>Desde hace d\u00e9cadas, Caparr\u00f3s recorre pa\u00edses con la generosa intenci\u00f3n de informarse y la l\u00facida disposici\u00f3n a decepcionarse. El remedio para sobrellevar y reconciliarse con un entorno imperfecto es la iron\u00eda que campea en cada p\u00e1gina.<\/p><p><em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em> avanza como un incontenible torrente de historias, datos y aforismos. El cronista se adentra en la selva para comer hormigas que saben a lim\u00f3n, conversa con un maquillista que prepara a los cad\u00e1veres como si estuvieran a punto de casarse, y oye con id\u00e9nticas dosis de atenci\u00f3n y escepticismo a los <em>palabreros<\/em> de la Mara Salvatrucha y a Jefes de Estado. En las ciudades, contempla madejas de cables en el aire y decide seguirlos para descifrar un continente que ya lleg\u00f3 a la electricidad pero no ha encontrado la forma de esconderla.<\/p><p><em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em> es el sitio de excepci\u00f3n donde Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s ense\u00f1a mientras aprende. En pocos libros resulta tan clara la funci\u00f3n del autor.\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/3812-martin-caparros\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Estamos ante un 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style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/juan-villoro-hector-abad-la-tierra-de-la-gran-promesa\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Juan Villoro<\/a><\/span>: Durante d\u00e9cadas (resumidas en 671 p\u00e1ginas) conversaste con toda clase de personas en Am\u00e9rica Latina, la mayor\u00eda desconocidas. Tambi\u00e9n hablaste con dirigentes, magnates y l\u00edderes de opini\u00f3n, pero sus voces tienen menor peso. En <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em> los actores de reparto adquieren m\u00e1s relevancia que los <em>protagonistas.<\/em> \u00bfC\u00f3mo eliges a tus relatores?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/3812-martin-caparros\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s<\/a><\/span>:<\/strong> No lo s\u00e9: de verdad no lo s\u00e9. A veces pienso que quiz\u00e1 me dejo elegir por ellos: camino, me pierdo, me encuentran. Sus formas de encontrarme son muy variadas y a veces tienen, como una mujer sabia, la astucia de convencerme de que soy yo quien los elijo, pero sabemos que no es cierto, \u00bfno?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Villoro: Pero a diferencia de otros cronistas, que piensan que el destino s\u00f3lo se decide desde las c\u00fapulas del poder, evitas que los protagonistas sean los presidentes, las celebridades, los caudillos intelectuales.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Martin Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong> Me aburren, en general, las personas que est\u00e1n, como me dijo alguna vez el presidente argentino Alfons\u00edn, \u00abmuy caseteadas\u00bb: que hablan como si estuvieran grabados de antemano. Los poderosos tienen demasiado miedo de lo que podr\u00edan llegar a decir, y han inventado esas formas cada vez m\u00e1s eficientes de hablar sin decir nada. O sea que te mienten, por acci\u00f3n y omisi\u00f3n, y para mentiras prefiero otras m\u00e1s imaginativas. Adem\u00e1s entrevistar a estos se\u00f1ores y se\u00f1oras supone alimentar esa idea, que el periodismo tradicional sostiene como nadie, de que ellos, los que se mueven alrededor del poder, son lo que importa. La definici\u00f3n de noticia, eso que nos han ense\u00f1ado a considerar noticia, es una gran contribuci\u00f3n al mantenimiento de las jerarqu\u00edas y los privilegios de nuestras sociedades.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Villoro:\u00a0Abres <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em> con la descripci\u00f3n de un mercado guatemalteco y dices que el continente es una mezcla de \u00abartesan\u00eda y turismo\u00bb. \u00bfEsto tambi\u00e9n se aplica a la cr\u00f3nica?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Martin Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0Espero que no, querido <em>g\u00fcey,<\/em> im\u00e1ginate a un ornitorrinco transmutado en esos tejidos de colores. Artesan\u00eda y turismo se han confabulado para convertirse en la mejor industria del lugar com\u00fan; esperemos que las cr\u00f3nicas no caigan en eso, que no nos copien, que sigan buscando formas nuevas que nos dejen convertidos en un viejo pico de pato sin pato, simp\u00e1tico y superado. Y de todos modos no digo que el continente sea esa mezcla; solo hablo de una gu\u00eda de viajes francesa situaba el \u201cesp\u00edritu de Am\u00e9rica Latina\u201d en el mercado de Chichicastenango. Me preocup\u00f3: ese mercado solo funciona jueves y domingos. \u00bfSer\u00eda que nuestro esp\u00edritu solo se manifiesta dos veces por semana? \u00bfQu\u00e9 es tan perezoso como suele definirnos el lugar com\u00fan?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Villoro:\u00a0Sigamos con las concepciones extranjeras de Am\u00e9rica latina. Con frecuencia se nos describe como un continente de extrema violencia, pero en comparaci\u00f3n con la Europa del siglo XX, <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em> fue un lugar bastante pac\u00edfico; al mismo tiempo, ah\u00ed se mata m\u00e1s que en cualquier otro sitio que no est\u00e9 en guerra. La violencia no es un asunto b\u00e9lico, sino de la vida diaria. \u00bfC\u00f3mo lo explicas?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Martin Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0Resulta que, pese a las apariencias, en\u00a0<em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/economia-politica-y-actualidad\/255238-libro-namerica-9788439738015\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/a><\/em> la violencia p\u00fablica, la violencia pol\u00edtica, fue mucho menor que en el resto del mundo. Durante el siglo XX, mientras esa violencia hac\u00eda 85 millones de v\u00edctimas en Europa, 100 millones en Asia, 15 en \u00c1frica, en Am\u00e9rica no lleg\u00f3 a matar a dos millones de personas \u2013y eso porque los mexicanos se ponen violentos cada vez que empieza un siglo. Dos millones de muertos es much\u00edsimo, pero es infinitamente menos que en cualquier otra regi\u00f3n del mundo en ese lapso. <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/el-fixer-narco-miguel-angel-vega\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">El problema fue cuando la violencia se privatiz\u00f3, como tantas otras cosas, en los 80 y 90<\/a><\/span>: sucedi\u00f3 cuando un grupito de empresarios colombianos entendi\u00f3 que, para hacer lo que siempre hacen los ricos <em>\u00f1americanos<\/em> \u2013extraer y exportar materias primas\u2013, necesitaban un aparato armado que les permitiera asegurarse el negocio. Los carteles de la coca iniciaron una espiral de violencia que todav\u00eda sufren algunos pa\u00edses de la regi\u00f3n, donde la cantidad de homicidios sigue siendo m\u00e1s alta que en el resto del mundo. En los dem\u00e1s esa tasa est\u00e1 alineada con la media mundial: somos m\u00e1s violentos que Europa Occidental pero no m\u00e1s que los Estados Unidos, digamos, o que Rusia.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"u5ade0l\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abPese a las apariencias, en <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em> la violencia p\u00fablica, la violencia pol\u00edtica, fue mucho menor que en el resto del mundo. Durante el siglo XX, mientras esa violencia hac\u00eda 85 millones de v\u00edctimas en Europa, 100 millones en Asia, 15 en \u00c1frica, en Am\u00e9rica no lleg\u00f3 a matar a dos millones de personas\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"9gj2ynu\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Juan Villoro: Estudiaste Historia. En tus novelas procuras que eso no sea muy evidente y en la mayor\u00eda de tus cr\u00f3nicas haces lo mismo, privilegiando la intuici\u00f3n y el sentido del presente. Pero no cancelaste esa vocaci\u00f3n. <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em> es el mejor ejemplo, la obra de un cronista-historiador.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Martin Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong> Solo estudi\u00e9 historia, y ni siquiera mucho, pero sigo haci\u00e9ndolo. Y aqu\u00ed no termino de estar de acuerdo contigo: creo que en mis novelas s\u00ed se nota. Varias est\u00e1n situadas en tiempos que se podr\u00eda llamar hist\u00f3ricos <em>\u2013Un d\u00eda en la vida de Dios, Echeverr\u00eda, Valfierno, Todo por la patria, Sinf\u00edn, <\/em><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/laura-ramos-las-senoritas-alan-pauls\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">ahora <em>Sarmiento<\/em><\/a><\/span><em>\u2013<\/em> y, sobre todo, la \u00fanica que siempre me import\u00f3 se llama La historia y no es sino la tentativa de escribir la historia de un tiempo y un lugar que quiz\u00e1 no hayan existido. \u00bfNo es esa la tarea del historiador?\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Villoro:\u00a0En la ficci\u00f3n usas, una y otra vez, hechos reales que abordas desde las conjeturas y la imaginaci\u00f3n. En <em>Valfierno<\/em> no cuentas la historia del robo de la Gioconda tal y como se conoci\u00f3 en la prensa, sino que agregas la vida \u00edntima e incluso secreta de los participantes. En <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/economia-politica-y-actualidad\/255202-ebook-namerica\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"><em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em><\/a><\/span> la creatividad narrativa no s\u00f3lo se apoya en datos, sino que proviene de ellos; pienso, por ejemplo, en el uso de las estad\u00edsticas, que no frenan la narraci\u00f3n sino que la disparan.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Martin Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0Me gusta mucho pensar en n\u00fameros, y tratar de que los n\u00fameros piensen de alg\u00fan modo. Y lo hacen: a veces se ponen muy astutos. Es un verdadero placer cuando alg\u00fan cruce de n\u00fameros me permite entender y, eventualmente, explicar algo. Y s\u00ed, trato de integrar esos hallazgos en la narraci\u00f3n, es uno de mis juegos favoritos. Aunque te confieso que nunca s\u00e9 c\u00f3mo escribirlos: \u00bfcifras o letras? No sabes las horas que me puedo pasar dudando sobre eso. Ser yo puede llegar a ser aburrid\u00edsimo.<\/p><p><strong><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/los-7-pecados-literarios\/juan-villoro-los-7-pecados-literarios\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Juan Villoro<\/a><\/span>:\u00a0He tenido la suerte de viajar contigo. En los hoteles casi nunca te gusta el cuarto que te asignan y pides que lo cambien. Sospecho que las molestias del viaje te ayudan a pensar. En lo que empacas y desempacas, vas de un cuarto a otro, te quejas y desahogas con la recepci\u00f3n concibes el plan del d\u00eda. Es una forma rara pero eficaz de la meditaci\u00f3n. Las ideas fuertes pueden venir de irritaciones m\u00ednimas. \u00bfMe equivoco?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Martin Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0Para empezar, me alegra que cites mis malas costumbres con tanta tolerancia: no sab\u00e9s la poca que suele mostrar al respecto mi tan querida concubina. Esta mala costumbre es, creo, una muestra m\u00e1s de mi est\u00fapido optimismo, ese que me ha llevado a vivir en cinco o seis pa\u00edses \u2013y mujeres\u2013: la idea de que siempre se puede estar mejor, de que en otra habitaci\u00f3n la cama puede ser m\u00e1s blanda, la ventana m\u00e1s llena, <em>greener pastures.<\/em> Es desesperante y es, al mismo tiempo, mi mayor alimento. Si hay una idea que manej\u00f3 mi vida es esa. Creo que la aplico tambi\u00e9n para pensar, planear, incluso ejecutar: hacer como si todo se pudiera hacer mejor, tratar de ir un poco m\u00e1s all\u00e1. Qu\u00e9 bien se debe vivir haciendo lo contrario, \u00bfno?<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"c8dh9e1\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abMi est\u00fapido optimismo me ha llevado a vivir en cinco o seis pa\u00edses -y mujeres-: la idea de que siempre se puede estar mejor, de que en otra habitaci\u00f3n la cama puede ser m\u00e1s blanda, la ventana m\u00e1s llena, <em>greener pastures.<\/em> Es desesperante y es, al mismo tiempo, mi mayor alimento. Si hay una idea que manej\u00f3 mi vida es esa. Creo que la aplico tambi\u00e9n para pensar, planear, incluso ejecutar: hacer como si todo se pudiera hacer mejor, tratar de ir un poco m\u00e1s all\u00e1\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"h5hl328\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Juan Villoro: Es evidente que te gusta mucho escribir mucho. Hay autores que se detienen a\u00f1os en la correcci\u00f3n; otros, como Juan Jos\u00e9 Arreola, son capaces de dictar un texto perfecto o, como Anthony Burgess, consideran que la primera versi\u00f3n es definitiva. \u00bfC\u00f3mo explicas tu avasallante producci\u00f3n? \u00bfCorriges en la mente y pasas en limpio en la p\u00e1gina sin necesidad de borradores?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong> Corrijo mucho en la cabeza o mente, s\u00ed. Cada tanto me repito que antes de escribir cada frase deber\u00eda recit\u00e1rmela varias veces \u2013en voz baja\u2013 para ir torne\u00e1ndola y que llegue a la pantalla con toda su m\u00fasica. Casi nunca lo hago; cuando s\u00ed, me doy cuenta de que si lo hubiera hecho m\u00e1s ser\u00eda un escritor. Pero bueno, todo no se puede. En cualquier caso, sol\u00eda corregir poco; ahora lo hago cada vez m\u00e1s, con m\u00e1s y m\u00e1s gusto. Es el momento del placer, \u00bfno te parece?: cuando uno ya sabe lo que dice y solo queda afinarlo y refinarlo, encontrarle los tonos ocultos, sacarle el m\u00e1rmol que le 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la idea de que haya un narrador en primera persona para poner en evidencia que todo relato es un relato \u2013y no la verdad \\\"objetiva\\\" que cierto periodismo pretend\u00eda\u2013, y la idea del periodismo s<em>elfie,<\/em> par\u00e1ndose ah\u00ed en medio, hay un mundo de vanidades torpes, la marca de esta vana edad\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"reiusv7\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Juan Villoro: En uno de tus mejores libros, <em>El interior,<\/em> recorriste la provincia argentina para trazar el mapa narrativo de un pa\u00eds. Esa desmesura te supo a poco. Despu\u00e9s de darle la vuelta al mundo en <em>Una luna, Contra el cambio <\/em>y<em> <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/economia-politica-y-actualidad\/227881-libro-el-hambre-9788439736851\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">El hambre<\/a><\/span>,<\/em> escribiste <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica,<\/em> el mapa de un continente entero. La vocaci\u00f3n de cart\u00f3grafo sin l\u00edmites se anunciaba en una de tus novelas, La historia. \u00bfEn qu\u00e9 medida <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em> es el resumen, <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/literatura-contemporanea\/35941-libro-el-aleph-9788499089515\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">el Aleph<\/a><\/span>, de tus trabajos previos?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong> Ay, mi querido, no hablemos de <em>alephes.<\/em> Si te contara lo que estoy escribiendo ahora te reir\u00edas 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class=\\\"MsoNormal\\\"><strong>Juan Caparr\u00f3s: Alguna vez dijiste que toda cr\u00f3nica se escribe en primera persona. Te refer\u00edas al hecho inevitable de que el autor incluye su propio punto de vista. En los \u00faltimos a\u00f1os, con el auge de la autoficci\u00f3n, hemos pasado a un <em>periodismo selfie,<\/em> donde el narrador habla m\u00e1s de s\u00ed mismo que de la realidad. \u00bfQu\u00e9 tan presente debe estar el cronista?<\/strong><\/p><p class=\\\"MsoNormal\\\"><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong> El <em>periodismo selfie<\/em> me parece una gran definici\u00f3n, te la voy a copiar profusamente. Porque es exactamente eso: dizque cronistas que se paran entre la c\u00e1mara y eso que deber\u00edan mostrar, que siempre me dan ganas de decirles correte o c\u00f3rrete, sal\u00ed o sal de ah\u00ed o incluso \u2013gracias, Arlt\u2013 <em>raj\u00e1 turrito raj\u00e1.<\/em> Y lo peor es que creo que t\u00fa y yo y un par m\u00e1s tenemos cierta responsabilidad en todo eso. Pero entre la idea de que haya un narrador en primera persona para poner en evidencia que todo relato es un relato \u2013y no la verdad <em>objetiva<\/em> que cierto periodismo pretend\u00eda\u2013, y la idea de pararse ah\u00ed en el medio hay un mundo de vanidades torpes, la marca de esta vana edad.<\/p><p class=\\\"MsoNormal\\\"><strong>Juan Caparr\u00f3s:\u00a0Haces una potente descripci\u00f3n de los asentamientos informales y las barriadas que circundan las ciudades. Uno de cada tres latinoamericanos vive en un sitio <em>transitorio.<\/em> Y esos lugares aumentan. \u00bfEl futuro del continente es convertirse en un sitio progresivamente provisional?<\/strong><\/p><p class=\\\"MsoNormal\\\"><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0Ojal\u00e1. Hubo tiempos en que cre\u00edmos que era esperanzadoramente provisional: que est\u00e1bamos construyendo unos lugares, unos pa\u00edses muy distintos, donde s\u00ed valdr\u00eda la pena vivir. Despu\u00e9s nos olvidamos o nos resignamos y <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/fernando-butazzoni-las-cenizas-del-condor\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">empezamos a creer que estos espacios tristes son lo permanente<\/a><\/span>, que van a ser as\u00ed por los siglos de los siglos y esas cosas. Ser\u00eda bueno que mir\u00e1ramos un poco alrededor y recuper\u00e1ramos la idea de la provisionalidad, la necesidad de esa provisionalidad, su urgencia. Por momentos parece que estuviera sucediendo: Chile, otra vez, como cada 50 a\u00f1os, nos lo quiere hacer creer. Ojal\u00e1 funcione.\u00a0<\/p><p class=\\\"MsoNormal\\\"><strong>Juan Villoro: Ordenas el libro a partir de ciudades. \u00bfEn qu\u00e9 medida lo rural, que determin\u00f3 tantas visiones de Am\u00e9rica latina, de<em> La vor\u00e1gine a <a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/ar\/revista-lengua\/gabriel-garcia-marquez\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Cien a\u00f1os de soledad<\/a><\/em>, se ha convertido en una suerte de tel\u00f3n de fondo que recuerda una \u00e9poca anterior, ya irrecuperable, o s\u00f3lo recuperable como espacio de excepci\u00f3n, como escondite o utop\u00eda arcaica?<\/strong><\/p><p class=\\\"MsoNormal\\\"><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0En todas las medidas, creo yo, en la medida en que somos la regi\u00f3n con mayor proporci\u00f3n de poblaci\u00f3n urbana de todo el mundo. Con una paradoja, sin embargo: que seguimos viviendo de <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\">l<a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/ficciones\/cristian-alarcon-el-tercer-paraiso-premio-alfaguara\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">o que producen nuestras tierras \u2013vegetales, animales, minerales<\/a><\/span>. O sea: nuestras ciudades desmesuradas, ca\u00f3ticas, orgullosas son como par\u00e1sitos de esos campos y selvas y monta\u00f1as que desde\u00f1amos en nombre de la civilizaci\u00f3n o la modernidad o esas cosas del f\u00fatbol.\u00a0<\/p><p><\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"hwuqq6m\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abHubo tiempos en que cre\u00edmos que era todo en este continente era esperanzadoramente provisional: que est\u00e1bamos construyendo unos lugares, unos pa\u00edses muy distintos, donde s\u00ed valdr\u00eda la pena vivir. Despu\u00e9s nos olvidamos o nos resignamos. Ser\u00eda bueno que mir\u00e1ramos un poco alrededor y recuper\u00e1ramos la idea de la provisionalidad, la necesidad de esa provisionalidad, su urgencia. Por momentos parece que estuviera sucediendo: Chile, otra vez, como cada 50 a\u00f1os, nos lo quiere hacer creer. Ojal\u00e1 funcione\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"d0i81i4\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Juan Villoro: Tienes una visi\u00f3n desencantada de la historia latinoamericana. Aunque dedicas un cap\u00edtulo a la cultura popular, donde la gente expresa sus esperanzas y sentimentalismos, los dem\u00e1s episodios se ocupan de desgracias que van de\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/John-Dinges-Plan-Condor\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">la violencia<\/a><\/span> al catolicismo, pasando por la desigualdad y el machismo. Un cubano describe los desastres de la isla y luego dice que siempre est\u00e1 alegre. \u00bfC\u00f3mo explicas esa pulsi\u00f3n feliz, el gusto por el carnaval en medio del apocalipsis?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong> \u00bfQu\u00e9 mejor lugar para los carnavales? Est\u00e1 bastante documentado que en los para\u00edsos no hay rumba, solo cuartetos de cuerdas con arpistas voladores de culitos al aire. Imaginate, m\u00fasica de ascensores todo el tiempo, seguro que las almas hablar\u00e1n del tiempo y el p\u00e9simo gobierno y todo eso que no termina de funcionar. Nunca nadie pretendi\u00f3 que la calma y el bienestar fueran entretenidos \u2013y por eso, supongo, <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em> suele mostrarse tan rumbosa. Aunque no s\u00e9, a veces estos argumentos me suenan a consuelo de tontos\u2026 Qu\u00e9 bueno cuando uno consigue no estar de acuerdo con lo que dice, \u00bfno?<\/p><p><strong>Juan Villoro:\u00a0Rodeado de las bananas verdes de Ecuador buscas una banana comestible, ya madura, y no la encuentras. \u00abBuscas a Roma en Roma, \u00a1oh peregrino!, \/ y en la misma Roma no la hallas\u00bb, dir\u00eda Quevedo. Ning\u00fan lugar se describe por completo a s\u00ed mismo. Necesita ser comparado con otro, visto en perspectiva. Para entender el destino de las bananas de Ecuador hay que saber ad\u00f3nde van, a la bodega de Rotterdam o Nueva Orle\u00e1ns donde las roc\u00edan de gas para que maduren. En <em>Una luna<\/em> y <em>Contra el cambio<\/em> le das la vuelta al mundo, viviste en Francia, ahora vives en Espa\u00f1a. \u00bfLa distancia te ayuda a entender mejor o interesarte m\u00e1s en Am\u00e9rica latina?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00bfSabes que Quevedo le copi\u00f3 esos versos a un franc\u00e9s, Joachim du Bellay, \u00abNouveau venu qui cherches Rome en Rome\/ et rien de Rome en Rome n\u2019aper\u00e7ois\u2026\u00bb? Por suerte en esos d\u00edas no cre\u00edan en esas tonter\u00edas de la originalidad. El original sonaba bastante bien, pero la traducci\u00f3n de Quevedo lo mejor\u00f3 tanto. Por desgracia la poes\u00eda es un don, no un esfuerzo. Pero supongo que s\u00ed, que la distancia me ayuda a no quedarme en esas minucias en las que a veces nos empe\u00f1amos cuando vivimos en un lugar, esa mirada corta que suele pasar por intensa, por comprometida: la acostumbrada urgencia nacional. Y, as\u00ed, esa distancia ayuda a no pensarnos desde ning\u00fan pa\u00eds, no pensarnos como si los pa\u00edses fueran entes esenciales, inmutables.<\/p><p><strong>Juan Villoro:\u00a0\u00bfY no sientes la culpa del que no est\u00e1 siempre ah\u00ed, tan com\u00fan entre los que recibimos educaci\u00f3n judeocristiana?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0Yo recib\u00ed <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/cl\/module\/ph_simpleblog\/module-ph_simpleblog-single?sb_category=no-ficcion&rewrite=revolucion-cuba-patricio-fernandez\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">una educaci\u00f3n comunista<\/a><\/span>, que es el judeocristianismo a la octava potencia. As\u00ed que culpas puedo tener casi todas las que quieras, pero quiz\u00e1 no la de no estar ah\u00ed: yo nunca estoy ah\u00ed, siempre estoy en otra parte, como la vida en Praga. <em>Ailleurs,<\/em> para volver al franc\u00e9s: una de esas palabras ajenas que me dan mucha envidia, una s\u00edntesis perfecta de ese lugar donde pasamos nuestras vidas.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Villoro:\u00a0Para Europa y Estados Unidos, Am\u00e9rica Latina ha sido una atractiva reserva del atraso, el lugar donde los excesos son folcl\u00f3ricos y todas las plantas son posibles. <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em> se opone a esta sed de exotismo y busca otras formas del misterio. Uno de sus mayores logros consiste en demostrar que podemos ser interesantes sin ser t\u00edpicos.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0Espero, porque ser t\u00edpico no es ser interesante, es ser obvio. Ser t\u00edpico es ser para otros; vale la pena buscar las formas de ser para nosotros mismos. Y eso, supongo, puede ser lo m\u00e1s interesante.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"7zwli6a\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abSomos la regi\u00f3n con mayor proporci\u00f3n de poblaci\u00f3n urbana de todo el mundo. Con una paradoja: seguimos viviendo de lo que producen nuestras tierras \u2013vegetales, animales, minerales. O sea: nuestras ciudades desmesuradas, ca\u00f3ticas, orgullosas son como par\u00e1sitos de esos campos y selvas y monta\u00f1as que desde\u00f1amos en nombre de la civilizaci\u00f3n o la modernidad\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"bxgtmtl\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Juan Villoro: Los dos autores m\u00e1s citados en tu libro son\u00a0<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/literatura\/ulises-carlos-gamerro-salas-subirat\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Borges<\/a><\/span> y<span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"> <a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/gabriel-garcia-marquez\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Garc\u00eda M\u00e1rquez<\/a><\/span>. \u00bfC\u00f3mo ves estos polos de la imaginaci\u00f3n latinoamericana?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong> Uno porque s\u00ed, el otro quiz\u00e1 porque no. Quiero decir: uno porque es lo que me interesa de <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica,<\/em> su voluntad de apropiaci\u00f3n y mezcla, el otro lo que menos me gusta, su pretensi\u00f3n folcl\u00f3rica y esencial. Uno porque siempre me fascin\u00f3 su voluntad de crear formas distintas, propias, inadaptadas; el otro porque siempre me sorprendi\u00f3 que se adaptara con tanto entusiasmo a las formas presupuestas. Pero supongo que en algo ten\u00eda que perjudicarme esto de ser un poco argentino, \u00bfno?<\/p><p><strong>Juan Villoro:\u00a0Un ind\u00edgena te dice en la selva que imagina a Dios como un aparato de radio gigante. La voz de un locutor o un caudillo. El r\u00edo de historias de <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica<\/em> fluye a contrapelo de las explicaciones demag\u00f3gicas del continente. \u00bfEn qu\u00e9 medida ser testigo de las ret\u00f3ricas del poder te ha estimulado a escribir todo lo contrario?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0Si solo fuera testigo, Juan, si solo fuera testigo\u2026 No voy a ponerme en v\u00edctima, porque detesto la postura de la v\u00edctima, tan en boga \u00faltimamente, pero, ya mayores como estamos, a veces me da la melancol\u00eda de pensar qu\u00e9 hubiera sido de nuestras vidas si esas ret\u00f3ricas no se hubieran banalizado tanto, sobre todo en estos \u00faltimos veinte o treinta a\u00f1os. Si hubi\u00e9ramos podido hablar en serio, digo. \u00bfTe imaginas? Pues s\u00ed, claro que me gustar\u00eda escribir todo lo contrario. Exactamente eso: todo lo contrario.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Villoro:\u00a0Ni siquiera un cronista tan exhaustivo como t\u00fa puede abarcarlo todo. Chile queda un poco de lado en tu libro. \u00bfTe interesa m\u00e1s ahora que gan\u00f3 Boric?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0Chile fue, <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/david-quammen-contagio-federico-kukso\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">pandemia mediante<\/a><\/span>, mi mejor fracaso en la escritura de <em>\u00d1am\u00e9rica.<\/em> Estaba en Buenos Aires el 10 de marzo de 2020 con un billete\/boleto\/tiquete\/pasaje para volar a Santiago a tratar de contar su famosa nueva clase media \u2013y, as\u00ed, deplorar un poco ese concepto\u2013 cuando cay\u00f3 la tempestad. Me tuve que volver de urgencia a casa, en mi sierra castellana, y me pas\u00e9 buena parte del a\u00f1o siguiente acechando la posibilidad de viajar a Chile, pero la peste pudo m\u00e1s. As\u00ed que al final tuve que resignarme a dejarlo fuera del registro, y lo lament\u00e9. Nunca dejo de agradecerles a los chilenos que nos hayan relevado \u2013a nosotros, argentinos\u2013 de la dura tarea de ser los odiosos de Am\u00e9rica; me habr\u00eda gustado ir a contarlo con alg\u00fan detalle. Pero, entretanto, se volvieron a convertir en esperanza, con el joven Boric. Espero de todo coraz\u00f3n que no termine como la otra vez, en canciones cubanas y calles de banlieue. Espero, tambi\u00e9n, que no se agote en peque\u00f1as reivindicaciones identitarias. Espero mucho, en realidad, y lo espero en serio: creo que es el primer movimiento nuevo que se produce en la regi\u00f3n en mucho tiempo. Ojal\u00e1.\u00a0<\/p><p><strong>Juan Villoro:\u00a0Tu libro est\u00e1 atravesado por un torrente de datos, cifras, estad\u00edsticas, declaraciones, detalles significativos. S\u00e9 que te gusta tomar fotograf\u00edas que est\u00e9n, deliberadamente, fuera de foco. \u00bfEs una manera de relajarte? \u00bfDescansas con los ojos de la precisi\u00f3n de las palabras?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Mart\u00edn Caparr\u00f3s:<\/strong>\u00a0Me parece que una imagen vale por mil palabras solo cuando es tan asertiva como ellas: cuando est\u00e1 banal y perfectamente definida. En cambio una que est\u00e9 fuera de foco vale por millones: puede decir casi cualquier cosa, mucho m\u00e1s que lo que su autor podr\u00eda suponer. \u00bfNo te gusta esa idea de decir sin saber del todo qu\u00e9? \u00bfNo ser\u00eda eso, si alguna vez lo alcanz\u00e1ramos, <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/teresa-arijon-la-mujer-pintada-matilde-sanchez\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">el arte<\/a><\/span>?<br \/><br \/><br \/><br \/><br \/><strong>OTROS CONTENIDOS DE INTER\u00c9S:<\/strong><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/la-historia-latinoamericana-segun-hilda-sabato-el-siglo-xix-fue-un-momento-de-innovacion-politica\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">La historia latinoamericana seg\u00fan Hilda S\u00e1bato: \u00abEl siglo XIX fue un momento de innovaci\u00f3n pol\u00edtica\u00bb<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span 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mundial<\/a><\/span><\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"cpwxl85\",\"elType\":\"section\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_layout\":\"\",\"stretch_section\":\"section-stretched\",\"layout\":\"full_width\",\"content_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"gap\":\"default\",\"height\":\"default\",\"custom_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":400},\"column_position\":\"middle\",\"content_position\":\"\",\"structure\":\"10\",\"section_background\":\"\",\"background_background\":\"\",\"background_color\":\"\",\"background_color_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":0},\"background_color_b\":\"\",\"background_color_b_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"background_gradient_type\":\"linear\",\"background_gradient_angle\":{\"unit\":\"deg\",\"size\":180},\"background_gradient_position\":\"center 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25 minutos

Crédito: Max Rompo.

Una de las experiencias más singulares de América Latina es entrar a una pequeña droguería colombiana. En ese resumen del mundo resulta lógico pedir hilo de coser, un paraguas, antibióticos, helados, regalos y un cortaúñas. Si en su novela La historia, Martín Caparrós creó el mito de fundación de un país, en Ñamérica ofrece el mapa social y sentimental de un continente entero. Enamorado de la totalidad, sigue un principio de composición que en la teoría se desprende del aleph de Borges y en la práctica de las droguerías donde no falta nada. 

Desde hace décadas, Caparrós recorre países con la generosa intención de informarse y la lúcida disposición a decepcionarse. El remedio para sobrellevar y reconciliarse con un entorno imperfecto es la ironía que campea en cada página.

Ñamérica avanza como un incontenible torrente de historias, datos y aforismos. El cronista se adentra en la selva para comer hormigas que saben a limón, conversa con un maquillista que prepara a los cadáveres como si estuvieran a punto de casarse, y oye con idénticas dosis de atención y escepticismo a los palabreros de la Mara Salvatrucha y a Jefes de Estado. En las ciudades, contempla madejas de cables en el aire y decide seguirlos para descifrar un continente que ya llegó a la electricidad pero no ha encontrado la forma de esconderla.

Ñamérica es el sitio de excepción donde Martín Caparrós enseña mientras aprende. En pocos libros resulta tan clara la función del autor. Estamos ante un maestro.

La «Ñ» nos une

Juan Villoro: Durante décadas (resumidas en 671 páginas) conversaste con toda clase de personas en América Latina, la mayoría desconocidas. También hablaste con dirigentes, magnates y líderes de opinión, pero sus voces tienen menor peso. En Ñamérica los actores de reparto adquieren más relevancia que los protagonistas. ¿Cómo eliges a tus relatores?

Martín Caparrós: No lo sé: de verdad no lo sé. A veces pienso que quizá me dejo elegir por ellos: camino, me pierdo, me encuentran. Sus formas de encontrarme son muy variadas y a veces tienen, como una mujer sabia, la astucia de convencerme de que soy yo quien los elijo, pero sabemos que no es cierto, ¿no? 

Juan Villoro: Pero a diferencia de otros cronistas, que piensan que el destino sólo se decide desde las cúpulas del poder, evitas que los protagonistas sean los presidentes, las celebridades, los caudillos intelectuales.

Martin Caparrós: Me aburren, en general, las personas que están, como me dijo alguna vez el presidente argentino Alfonsín, «muy caseteadas»: que hablan como si estuvieran grabados de antemano. Los poderosos tienen demasiado miedo de lo que podrían llegar a decir, y han inventado esas formas cada vez más eficientes de hablar sin decir nada. O sea que te mienten, por acción y omisión, y para mentiras prefiero otras más imaginativas. Además entrevistar a estos señores y señoras supone alimentar esa idea, que el periodismo tradicional sostiene como nadie, de que ellos, los que se mueven alrededor del poder, son lo que importa. La definición de noticia, eso que nos han enseñado a considerar noticia, es una gran contribución al mantenimiento de las jerarquías y los privilegios de nuestras sociedades. 

Juan Villoro: Abres Ñamérica con la descripción de un mercado guatemalteco y dices que el continente es una mezcla de «artesanía y turismo». ¿Esto también se aplica a la crónica?

Martin Caparrós: Espero que no, querido güey, imáginate a un ornitorrinco transmutado en esos tejidos de colores. Artesanía y turismo se han confabulado para convertirse en la mejor industria del lugar común; esperemos que las crónicas no caigan en eso, que no nos copien, que sigan buscando formas nuevas que nos dejen convertidos en un viejo pico de pato sin pato, simpático y superado. Y de todos modos no digo que el continente sea esa mezcla; solo hablo de una guía de viajes francesa situaba el “espíritu de América Latina” en el mercado de Chichicastenango. Me preocupó: ese mercado solo funciona jueves y domingos. ¿Sería que nuestro espíritu solo se manifiesta dos veces por semana? ¿Qué es tan perezoso como suele definirnos el lugar común? 

Juan Villoro: Sigamos con las concepciones extranjeras de América latina. Con frecuencia se nos describe como un continente de extrema violencia, pero en comparación con la Europa del siglo XX, Ñamérica fue un lugar bastante pacífico; al mismo tiempo, ahí se mata más que en cualquier otro sitio que no esté en guerra. La violencia no es un asunto bélico, sino de la vida diaria. ¿Cómo lo explicas?

Martin Caparrós: Resulta que, pese a las apariencias, en Ñamérica la violencia pública, la violencia política, fue mucho menor que en el resto del mundo. Durante el siglo XX, mientras esa violencia hacía 85 millones de víctimas en Europa, 100 millones en Asia, 15 en África, en América no llegó a matar a dos millones de personas –y eso porque los mexicanos se ponen violentos cada vez que empieza un siglo. Dos millones de muertos es muchísimo, pero es infinitamente menos que en cualquier otra región del mundo en ese lapso. El problema fue cuando la violencia se privatizó, como tantas otras cosas, en los 80 y 90: sucedió cuando un grupito de empresarios colombianos entendió que, para hacer lo que siempre hacen los ricos ñamericanos –extraer y exportar materias primas–, necesitaban un aparato armado que les permitiera asegurarse el negocio. Los carteles de la coca iniciaron una espiral de violencia que todavía sufren algunos países de la región, donde la cantidad de homicidios sigue siendo más alta que en el resto del mundo. En los demás esa tasa está alineada con la media mundial: somos más violentos que Europa Occidental pero no más que los Estados Unidos, digamos, o que Rusia.

«Pese a las apariencias, en Ñamérica la violencia pública, la violencia política, fue mucho menor que en el resto del mundo. Durante el siglo XX, mientras esa violencia hacía 85 millones de víctimas en Europa, 100 millones en Asia, 15 en África, en América no llegó a matar a dos millones de personas».

Juan Villoro: Estudiaste Historia. En tus novelas procuras que eso no sea muy evidente y en la mayoría de tus crónicas haces lo mismo, privilegiando la intuición y el sentido del presente. Pero no cancelaste esa vocación. Ñamérica es el mejor ejemplo, la obra de un cronista-historiador.

Martin Caparrós: Solo estudié historia, y ni siquiera mucho, pero sigo haciéndolo. Y aquí no termino de estar de acuerdo contigo: creo que en mis novelas sí se nota. Varias están situadas en tiempos que se podría llamar históricos –Un día en la vida de Dios, Echeverría, Valfierno, Todo por la patria, Sinfín, ahora Sarmiento y, sobre todo, la única que siempre me importó se llama La historia y no es sino la tentativa de escribir la historia de un tiempo y un lugar que quizá no hayan existido. ¿No es esa la tarea del historiador? 

Juan Villoro: En la ficción usas, una y otra vez, hechos reales que abordas desde las conjeturas y la imaginación. En Valfierno no cuentas la historia del robo de la Gioconda tal y como se conoció en la prensa, sino que agregas la vida íntima e incluso secreta de los participantes. En Ñamérica la creatividad narrativa no sólo se apoya en datos, sino que proviene de ellos; pienso, por ejemplo, en el uso de las estadísticas, que no frenan la narración sino que la disparan.

Martin Caparrós: Me gusta mucho pensar en números, y tratar de que los números piensen de algún modo. Y lo hacen: a veces se ponen muy astutos. Es un verdadero placer cuando algún cruce de números me permite entender y, eventualmente, explicar algo. Y sí, trato de integrar esos hallazgos en la narración, es uno de mis juegos favoritos. Aunque te confieso que nunca sé cómo escribirlos: ¿cifras o letras? No sabes las horas que me puedo pasar dudando sobre eso. Ser yo puede llegar a ser aburridísimo.

Juan Villoro: He tenido la suerte de viajar contigo. En los hoteles casi nunca te gusta el cuarto que te asignan y pides que lo cambien. Sospecho que las molestias del viaje te ayudan a pensar. En lo que empacas y desempacas, vas de un cuarto a otro, te quejas y desahogas con la recepción concibes el plan del día. Es una forma rara pero eficaz de la meditación. Las ideas fuertes pueden venir de irritaciones mínimas. ¿Me equivoco?

Martin Caparrós: Para empezar, me alegra que cites mis malas costumbres con tanta tolerancia: no sabés la poca que suele mostrar al respecto mi tan querida concubina. Esta mala costumbre es, creo, una muestra más de mi estúpido optimismo, ese que me ha llevado a vivir en cinco o seis países –y mujeres–: la idea de que siempre se puede estar mejor, de que en otra habitación la cama puede ser más blanda, la ventana más llena, greener pastures. Es desesperante y es, al mismo tiempo, mi mayor alimento. Si hay una idea que manejó mi vida es esa. Creo que la aplico también para pensar, planear, incluso ejecutar: hacer como si todo se pudiera hacer mejor, tratar de ir un poco más allá. Qué bien se debe vivir haciendo lo contrario, ¿no?

«Mi estúpido optimismo me ha llevado a vivir en cinco o seis países -y mujeres-: la idea de que siempre se puede estar mejor, de que en otra habitación la cama puede ser más blanda, la ventana más llena, greener pastures. Es desesperante y es, al mismo tiempo, mi mayor alimento. Si hay una idea que manejó mi vida es esa. Creo que la aplico también para pensar, planear, incluso ejecutar: hacer como si todo se pudiera hacer mejor, tratar de ir un poco más allá».

Juan Villoro: Es evidente que te gusta mucho escribir mucho. Hay autores que se detienen años en la corrección; otros, como Juan José Arreola, son capaces de dictar un texto perfecto o, como Anthony Burgess, consideran que la primera versión es definitiva. ¿Cómo explicas tu avasallante producción? ¿Corriges en la mente y pasas en limpio en la página sin necesidad de borradores?

Martín Caparrós: Corrijo mucho en la cabeza o mente, sí. Cada tanto me repito que antes de escribir cada frase debería recitármela varias veces –en voz baja– para ir torneándola y que llegue a la pantalla con toda su música. Casi nunca lo hago; cuando sí, me doy cuenta de que si lo hubiera hecho más sería un escritor. Pero bueno, todo no se puede. En cualquier caso, solía corregir poco; ahora lo hago cada vez más, con más y más gusto. Es el momento del placer, ¿no te parece?: cuando uno ya sabe lo que dice y solo queda afinarlo y refinarlo, encontrarle los tonos ocultos, sacarle el mármol que le sobra. 

Martín Caparrós en una imagen tomada en 2020. Crédito: Getty Images.

Juan Villoro: Con frecuencia aludes a personas que entrevistaste hace mucho y citas textos tuyos de otro tiempo. ¿Llevabas notas, archivos digitales, cuadernos sobre América latina, pensando que algún día se reunirían en un mismo texto? ¿En qué momento supiste que ese caudal podía ser un libro? 

Martín Caparrós: No, nunca pensé en reunir esos materiales hasta ese día, hace ya casi cuatro años, en que se me ocurrió que quería tratar de contar y entender qué es, cómo es nuestra región ahora. Entonces, pensando cómo lo haría, se me ocurrió que podría usar también materiales anteriores si conseguía fundirlos con esos textos nuevos que estaba armando, y me puse a juntar lo que había escrito sobre la región. Me sorprendió la cantidad, la variedad: se ve que he dado muchas vueltas por Ñamérica. De todas maneras, la enorme mayoría quedo fuera: no te creas que no me dio pena. A veces es duro tener que aceptar que una frase o una situación o una idea que te gustaban ya murieron y están enterradas en un libro que publicaste hace veinte años.

«Entre la idea de que haya un narrador en primera persona para poner en evidencia que todo relato es un relato –y no la verdad "objetiva" que cierto periodismo pretendía–, y la idea del periodismo selfie, parándose ahí en medio, hay un mundo de vanidades torpes, la marca de esta vana edad».

Juan Villoro: En uno de tus mejores libros, El interior, recorriste la provincia argentina para trazar el mapa narrativo de un país. Esa desmesura te supo a poco. Después de darle la vuelta al mundo en Una luna, Contra el cambio y El hambre, escribiste Ñamérica, el mapa de un continente entero. La vocación de cartógrafo sin límites se anunciaba en una de tus novelas, La historia. ¿En qué medida Ñamérica es el resumen, el Aleph, de tus trabajos previos?

Martín Caparrós: Ay, mi querido, no hablemos de alephes. Si te contara lo que estoy escribiendo ahora te reirías demasiado.

Crédito: Getty Images.

Juan Caparrós: Alguna vez dijiste que toda crónica se escribe en primera persona. Te referías al hecho inevitable de que el autor incluye su propio punto de vista. En los últimos años, con el auge de la autoficción, hemos pasado a un periodismo selfie, donde el narrador habla más de sí mismo que de la realidad. ¿Qué tan presente debe estar el cronista?

Martín Caparrós: El periodismo selfie me parece una gran definición, te la voy a copiar profusamente. Porque es exactamente eso: dizque cronistas que se paran entre la cámara y eso que deberían mostrar, que siempre me dan ganas de decirles correte o córrete, salí o sal de ahí o incluso –gracias, Arlt– rajá turrito rajá. Y lo peor es que creo que tú y yo y un par más tenemos cierta responsabilidad en todo eso. Pero entre la idea de que haya un narrador en primera persona para poner en evidencia que todo relato es un relato –y no la verdad objetiva que cierto periodismo pretendía–, y la idea de pararse ahí en el medio hay un mundo de vanidades torpes, la marca de esta vana edad.

Juan Caparrós: Haces una potente descripción de los asentamientos informales y las barriadas que circundan las ciudades. Uno de cada tres latinoamericanos vive en un sitio transitorio. Y esos lugares aumentan. ¿El futuro del continente es convertirse en un sitio progresivamente provisional?

Martín Caparrós: Ojalá. Hubo tiempos en que creímos que era esperanzadoramente provisional: que estábamos construyendo unos lugares, unos países muy distintos, donde sí valdría la pena vivir. Después nos olvidamos o nos resignamos y empezamos a creer que estos espacios tristes son lo permanente, que van a ser así por los siglos de los siglos y esas cosas. Sería bueno que miráramos un poco alrededor y recuperáramos la idea de la provisionalidad, la necesidad de esa provisionalidad, su urgencia. Por momentos parece que estuviera sucediendo: Chile, otra vez, como cada 50 años, nos lo quiere hacer creer. Ojalá funcione. 

Juan Villoro: Ordenas el libro a partir de ciudades. ¿En qué medida lo rural, que determinó tantas visiones de América latina, de La vorágine a Cien años de soledad, se ha convertido en una suerte de telón de fondo que recuerda una época anterior, ya irrecuperable, o sólo recuperable como espacio de excepción, como escondite o utopía arcaica?

Martín Caparrós: En todas las medidas, creo yo, en la medida en que somos la región con mayor proporción de población urbana de todo el mundo. Con una paradoja, sin embargo: que seguimos viviendo de lo que producen nuestras tierras –vegetales, animales, minerales. O sea: nuestras ciudades desmesuradas, caóticas, orgullosas son como parásitos de esos campos y selvas y montañas que desdeñamos en nombre de la civilización o la modernidad o esas cosas del fútbol. 

«Hubo tiempos en que creímos que era todo en este continente era esperanzadoramente provisional: que estábamos construyendo unos lugares, unos países muy distintos, donde sí valdría la pena vivir. Después nos olvidamos o nos resignamos. Sería bueno que miráramos un poco alrededor y recuperáramos la idea de la provisionalidad, la necesidad de esa provisionalidad, su urgencia. Por momentos parece que estuviera sucediendo: Chile, otra vez, como cada 50 años, nos lo quiere hacer creer. Ojalá funcione».

Juan Villoro: Tienes una visión desencantada de la historia latinoamericana. Aunque dedicas un capítulo a la cultura popular, donde la gente expresa sus esperanzas y sentimentalismos, los demás episodios se ocupan de desgracias que van de la violencia al catolicismo, pasando por la desigualdad y el machismo. Un cubano describe los desastres de la isla y luego dice que siempre está alegre. ¿Cómo explicas esa pulsión feliz, el gusto por el carnaval en medio del apocalipsis?

Martín Caparrós: ¿Qué mejor lugar para los carnavales? Está bastante documentado que en los paraísos no hay rumba, solo cuartetos de cuerdas con arpistas voladores de culitos al aire. Imaginate, música de ascensores todo el tiempo, seguro que las almas hablarán del tiempo y el pésimo gobierno y todo eso que no termina de funcionar. Nunca nadie pretendió que la calma y el bienestar fueran entretenidos –y por eso, supongo, Ñamérica suele mostrarse tan rumbosa. Aunque no sé, a veces estos argumentos me suenan a consuelo de tontos… Qué bueno cuando uno consigue no estar de acuerdo con lo que dice, ¿no?

Juan Villoro: Rodeado de las bananas verdes de Ecuador buscas una banana comestible, ya madura, y no la encuentras. «Buscas a Roma en Roma, ¡oh peregrino!, / y en la misma Roma no la hallas», diría Quevedo. Ningún lugar se describe por completo a sí mismo. Necesita ser comparado con otro, visto en perspectiva. Para entender el destino de las bananas de Ecuador hay que saber adónde van, a la bodega de Rotterdam o Nueva Orleáns donde las rocían de gas para que maduren. En Una luna y Contra el cambio le das la vuelta al mundo, viviste en Francia, ahora vives en España. ¿La distancia te ayuda a entender mejor o interesarte más en América latina? 

Martín Caparrós: ¿Sabes que Quevedo le copió esos versos a un francés, Joachim du Bellay, «Nouveau venu qui cherches Rome en Rome/ et rien de Rome en Rome n’aperçois…»? Por suerte en esos días no creían en esas tonterías de la originalidad. El original sonaba bastante bien, pero la traducción de Quevedo lo mejoró tanto. Por desgracia la poesía es un don, no un esfuerzo. Pero supongo que sí, que la distancia me ayuda a no quedarme en esas minucias en las que a veces nos empeñamos cuando vivimos en un lugar, esa mirada corta que suele pasar por intensa, por comprometida: la acostumbrada urgencia nacional. Y, así, esa distancia ayuda a no pensarnos desde ningún país, no pensarnos como si los países fueran entes esenciales, inmutables.

Juan Villoro: ¿Y no sientes la culpa del que no está siempre ahí, tan común entre los que recibimos educación judeocristiana?

Martín Caparrós: Yo recibí una educación comunista, que es el judeocristianismo a la octava potencia. Así que culpas puedo tener casi todas las que quieras, pero quizá no la de no estar ahí: yo nunca estoy ahí, siempre estoy en otra parte, como la vida en Praga. Ailleurs, para volver al francés: una de esas palabras ajenas que me dan mucha envidia, una síntesis perfecta de ese lugar donde pasamos nuestras vidas. 

Juan Villoro: Para Europa y Estados Unidos, América Latina ha sido una atractiva reserva del atraso, el lugar donde los excesos son folclóricos y todas las plantas son posibles. Ñamérica se opone a esta sed de exotismo y busca otras formas del misterio. Uno de sus mayores logros consiste en demostrar que podemos ser interesantes sin ser típicos.

Martín Caparrós: Espero, porque ser típico no es ser interesante, es ser obvio. Ser típico es ser para otros; vale la pena buscar las formas de ser para nosotros mismos. Y eso, supongo, puede ser lo más interesante.

«Somos la región con mayor proporción de población urbana de todo el mundo. Con una paradoja: seguimos viviendo de lo que producen nuestras tierras –vegetales, animales, minerales. O sea: nuestras ciudades desmesuradas, caóticas, orgullosas son como parásitos de esos campos y selvas y montañas que desdeñamos en nombre de la civilización o la modernidad».

Juan Villoro: Los dos autores más citados en tu libro son Borges y García Márquez. ¿Cómo ves estos polos de la imaginación latinoamericana?

Martín Caparrós: Uno porque sí, el otro quizá porque no. Quiero decir: uno porque es lo que me interesa de Ñamérica, su voluntad de apropiación y mezcla, el otro lo que menos me gusta, su pretensión folclórica y esencial. Uno porque siempre me fascinó su voluntad de crear formas distintas, propias, inadaptadas; el otro porque siempre me sorprendió que se adaptara con tanto entusiasmo a las formas presupuestas. Pero supongo que en algo tenía que perjudicarme esto de ser un poco argentino, ¿no?

Juan Villoro: Un indígena te dice en la selva que imagina a Dios como un aparato de radio gigante. La voz de un locutor o un caudillo. El río de historias de Ñamérica fluye a contrapelo de las explicaciones demagógicas del continente. ¿En qué medida ser testigo de las retóricas del poder te ha estimulado a escribir todo lo contrario?

Martín Caparrós: Si solo fuera testigo, Juan, si solo fuera testigo… No voy a ponerme en víctima, porque detesto la postura de la víctima, tan en boga últimamente, pero, ya mayores como estamos, a veces me da la melancolía de pensar qué hubiera sido de nuestras vidas si esas retóricas no se hubieran banalizado tanto, sobre todo en estos últimos veinte o treinta años. Si hubiéramos podido hablar en serio, digo. ¿Te imaginas? Pues sí, claro que me gustaría escribir todo lo contrario. Exactamente eso: todo lo contrario. 

Juan Villoro: Ni siquiera un cronista tan exhaustivo como tú puede abarcarlo todo. Chile queda un poco de lado en tu libro. ¿Te interesa más ahora que ganó Boric?

Martín Caparrós: Chile fue, pandemia mediante, mi mejor fracaso en la escritura de Ñamérica. Estaba en Buenos Aires el 10 de marzo de 2020 con un billete/boleto/tiquete/pasaje para volar a Santiago a tratar de contar su famosa nueva clase media –y, así, deplorar un poco ese concepto– cuando cayó la tempestad. Me tuve que volver de urgencia a casa, en mi sierra castellana, y me pasé buena parte del año siguiente acechando la posibilidad de viajar a Chile, pero la peste pudo más. Así que al final tuve que resignarme a dejarlo fuera del registro, y lo lamenté. Nunca dejo de agradecerles a los chilenos que nos hayan relevado –a nosotros, argentinos– de la dura tarea de ser los odiosos de América; me habría gustado ir a contarlo con algún detalle. Pero, entretanto, se volvieron a convertir en esperanza, con el joven Boric. Espero de todo corazón que no termine como la otra vez, en canciones cubanas y calles de banlieue. Espero, también, que no se agote en pequeñas reivindicaciones identitarias. Espero mucho, en realidad, y lo espero en serio: creo que es el primer movimiento nuevo que se produce en la región en mucho tiempo. Ojalá. 

Juan Villoro: Tu libro está atravesado por un torrente de datos, cifras, estadísticas, declaraciones, detalles significativos. Sé que te gusta tomar fotografías que estén, deliberadamente, fuera de foco. ¿Es una manera de relajarte? ¿Descansas con los ojos de la precisión de las palabras?

Martín Caparrós: Me parece que una imagen vale por mil palabras solo cuando es tan asertiva como ellas: cuando está banal y perfectamente definida. En cambio una que esté fuera de foco vale por millones: puede decir casi cualquier cosa, mucho más que lo que su autor podría suponer. ¿No te gusta esa idea de decir sin saber del todo qué? ¿No sería eso, si alguna vez lo alcanzáramos, el arte?




OTROS CONTENIDOS DE INTERÉS:

La historia latinoamericana según Hilda Sábato: «El siglo XIX fue un momento de innovación política»

Juan Villoro por Héctor Abad Faciolince: el material del que están hechos los sueños

Escritoras latinoamericanas: Una detallada biografía de un fenómeno mundial

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