Entrevistas

Horacio Castellanos Moya, el hombre del pasaporte equivocado

Creció en El Salvador, escapó de allí a los 20 años huyendo de la guerra civil y vivió en México, Canadá, España, Alemania, Japón y Estados Unidos, pero en sus libros no puede dejar de volver a aquel pequeño país de Centroamérica en el que se crió y «donde el miedo y la tragedia han sido desde hace mucho la vida cotidiana». De la violencia, la guerra, el poder y la escritura habló Horacio Castellanos Moya con el escritor chileno Rafael Gumucio en esta entrevista para LENGUA. El pretexto perfecto es su último libro, «Roque Dalton: correspondencia clandestina y otros ensayos» (Literatura Random House), donde sigue el rastro de otro salvadoreño, el poeta revolucionario Roque Dalton que, acusado de traición, murió a manos de sus camaradas: una vida y una muerte que resumen los dilemas de una región donde, durante muchos años, la poesía llevó faltamente a la guerrilla.
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style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/1087-rafael-gumucio\\\">RAFAEL GUMUCIO<\/a><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.upf.edu\/es\/web\/humanitats\/entry\/-\/-\/15900\/404\/miquel-berga\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"><br 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Gumucio: \u00bfPor qu\u00e9 mataron a Roque Dalton? \u2014le pregunto por Zoom a Castellanos Moya, que vive quiz\u00e1 en el perfecto <em>reverse<\/em> de San Salvador o de su Honduras natal, en Iowa, donde da clases de escritura creativa.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> Podr\u00eda suponer muchas cosas, pero no quise en el libro ir m\u00e1s all\u00e1 de los datos a los que tuve acceso al leer la correspondencia privada de Roque Dalton de su \u00e9poca clandestina. Quise escribir lo que pude leer ah\u00ed, pero quedan muchas preguntas abiertas. \u00bfQu\u00e9 pas\u00f3 realmente? \u00bfPor qu\u00e9? \u00bfLo cambiaron por alguien? No se sabe. Lo \u00fanico que s\u00e9 es que los agentes de la CIA que trabajaron en El Salvador en los sesenta e interrogaron a Dalton entonces hab\u00edan llegado a lugares importantes dentro de la agencia el a\u00f1o en que mataron a Dalton.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: Es muy extra\u00f1a la correspondencia. Est\u00e1 todo en clave cuando est\u00e1 en San Salvador y todo abierto y sin casi ninguna clave cuando est\u00e1 en M\u00e9xico. Es como si creyera que al estar en M\u00e9xico era invulnerable.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> Roque Dalton es una persona cuyos requerimientos como poeta son m\u00e1s importantes que su rol en la guerrilla. Va a M\u00e9xico, sabiendo que es objetivo de la CIA y del ej\u00e9rcito salvadore\u00f1o, a tener una relaci\u00f3n con una examante. Tambi\u00e9n se preocupa de los derechos de autor y de los premios de sus libros. De pronto se vio envuelto en los devaneos de la Guerra Fr\u00eda, en un juego de poder que le quedaba grande.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: \u00bfCrees que Cuba lo abandon\u00f3? Al menos parece no haber hecho nada para salvarlo.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> Roque Dalton fue un agente de la Revoluci\u00f3n cubana. Recibi\u00f3 cursos de inteligencia y contrainteligencia en Cuba. Era uno de los cinco o seis salvadore\u00f1os que ten\u00edan ese entrenamiento. 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Gumucio: En los sesenta y setenta en Centroam\u00e9rica parec\u00eda que ser poeta te llevaba a ser guerrillero fatalmente.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> Roque Dalton fue el primer poeta que se hizo abiertamente comunista cuando estaba prohibido serlo. Despu\u00e9s hubo un proceso de radicalizaci\u00f3n que produce lo que t\u00fa dices, que la poes\u00eda y la guerrilla estuvieran unidas, lo que es una paradoja porque es muy dif\u00edcil que un hombre con habilidad para la escritura pueda tener habilidades para el poder, porque al final ser soldado es administrar el poder. La lucha por el poder es lo contrario de la poes\u00eda.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: \u00bfEn qu\u00e9 sentido?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> La relaci\u00f3n con la palabra es completamente distinta. Para el poeta, la palabra es otra cosa que para el pol\u00edtico. El poeta soldado o abandona el rol de soldado o muere en combate, que es lo ideal para el poeta. Lo parad\u00f3jico en el caso de Roque Dalton es que no muere en combate, sino que muere a manos de la propia guerrilla. Eso le agrega una dimensi\u00f3n tr\u00e1gica a su figura, la de un poeta que est\u00e1 metido en una intriga de poder mucho m\u00e1s grande de lo que pudo imaginar.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"zbec1zn\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abEs muy dif\u00edcil que un hombre con habilidad para la escritura pueda tener habilidades para el poder, porque al final ser soldado es administrar el poder. La lucha por el poder es lo contrario de la poes\u00eda\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"cx1hca8\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: Esto de matar a uno de los tuyos parece algo bastante com\u00fan en la izquierda latinoamericana. \u00bfQu\u00e9 la lleva a fragmentarse de esa manera y formar miles de facciones?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> No creo que esto sea un fen\u00f3meno exclusivo de la izquierda latinoamericana. Yo creo que es m\u00e1s bien un fen\u00f3meno que tiene que ver con el poder. La misma derecha cuando pierde el poder se fragmenta. El poder aglutina, la falta de poder dispersa. La diferencia es que la derecha vende estabilidad y la izquierda quiere vender sue\u00f1os, y eso por supuesto lleva las cosas a otro nivel.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: A un nivel de paroxismo quiz\u00e1.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> Uno de los problemas m\u00e1s grandes de la actualidad es que no reconozco, quiz\u00e1 por ignorancia m\u00eda, un pensamiento de izquierda latinoamericano, algo que digas: \u00abEsta gente est\u00e1 tratando de pensar fuera de las categor\u00edas que nos dan los europeos y los anglosajones\u00bb. Eso me cuesta verlo como pensamiento, aunque como pr\u00e1ctica pol\u00edtica puede que se haya intentado. Como no tiene pensamiento, tiene que aglutinar a las personas en torno a una serie de ilusiones que una vez en el poder no puede cumplir, y despu\u00e9s tiene que pagar el precio de esas ilusiones que no se cumplen.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: \u00bfQu\u00e9 ilusiones?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> La primera ilusi\u00f3n es la ilusi\u00f3n de la igualdad econ\u00f3mica. Eso es una ilusi\u00f3n en el mundo actual, porque llega un gobierno y el margen de decisi\u00f3n es muy poco. Seguimos siendo el vag\u00f3n de cola de Occidente. Quiz\u00e1 la \u00fanica aportaci\u00f3n a Occidente son la literatura y el arte. Para m\u00ed es misterioso, y eso incluye a la derecha. Ninguno de nuestros pa\u00edses ha dado el salto. Ni Brasil ni Argentina, que estuvieron tan cerca. \u00bfPor qu\u00e9 Latinoam\u00e9rica sigue siendo Latinoam\u00e9rica? Es muy f\u00e1cil echarle la culpa al imperialismo, pero hay algo que no es el imperialismo que nos hace seguir en el lugar en que estamos. Pero ya estamos hablando de metaf\u00edsica.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: Cuentas en el libro que tu \u00fanico pasaporte es el pasaporte salvadore\u00f1o, que te ha metido en todo tipo de problemas en las fronteras.<\/strong><\/p><p><\/p><p><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> Realmente es poco pr\u00e1ctico ese pasaporte, pero la verdad es que hasta ahora no me he planteado cambiarlo. Me da la impresi\u00f3n de que voy a perder lo poco que me queda de El Salvador. S\u00e9 racionalmente que es una tonter\u00eda. El hecho es que viv\u00ed trece a\u00f1os en M\u00e9xico, tengo dos hijos mexicanos y nunca pens\u00e9 en hacerme mexicano. Tengo diez a\u00f1os en Estados Unidos y tampoco he pensado en conseguir un pasaporte de los Estados Unidos.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"5v8ndhi\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abSeguimos siendo el vag\u00f3n de cola de Occidente. Para m\u00ed es misterioso, y eso incluye a la derecha. Ninguno de nuestros pa\u00edses ha dado el salto. Ni Brasil ni Argentina, que estuvieron tan cerca. \u00bfPor qu\u00e9 Latinoam\u00e9rica sigue siendo Latinoam\u00e9rica? Es muy f\u00e1cil echarle la culpa al imperialismo, pero hay algo que no es el imperialismo que nos hace seguir en el lugar en que estamos\u00bb.\u00a0<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"elngsqn\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: Es una incomodidad en las fronteras, pero es una bendici\u00f3n literaria. O sea, venir de El Salvador es una fuente inagotable de relatos.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya<\/strong>: Es cierto, la vida ha sido tan intensa, las impresiones, tan fuertes, que hay un cofre de memorias que te permiten sacar historias. Algunas son tan dolorosas que no se pueden escribir. Pero indudablemente las inestabilidades son un motor para escribir. La verdad es que yo no eleg\u00ed nada. Ni de qu\u00e9 escribir ni de qu\u00e9 no escribir. Tampoco eleg\u00ed escribir. Me di cuenta de que era sordo y no pude ser m\u00fasico, y escrib\u00ed aunque ven\u00eda de un mundo en que era extra\u00f1\u00edsimo escribir. Vivir en El Salvador me ha obligado a pensar en el fen\u00f3meno de la violencia de una manera que no habr\u00eda pensado nunca de nacer en Uruguay.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: \u00bfEscribir ayuda a comprender la violencia?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> Lo \u00fanico que comprendes es que est\u00e1 dentro de vos. La violencia no es algo que traen los marcianos. Hay periodos de civilizaci\u00f3n en que se canaliza de otra forma, pero yo creo que eso viene en los genes de todos. Para m\u00ed escribir no es tanto reconocer la violencia en los otros sino\u00a0en m\u00ed mismo, reconocer que podr\u00eda tener las peores expresiones de violencia si no tuviera un mecanismo de control.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: Escapaste muy joven a Canad\u00e1 y, sin embargo, relatas c\u00f3mo vuelves a San Salvador, sabiendo el peligro que implicaba una y otra vez.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> Hace veinte a\u00f1os que no vuelvo, que solo voy de viaje. Creo que la vez que regres\u00e9 m\u00e1s en serio fue al final de la guerra civil. Ah\u00ed hab\u00eda proyectos period\u00edsticos y de otras cosas. Hab\u00eda la impresi\u00f3n de que se pod\u00eda construir algo, y la energ\u00eda y la juventud. Fue la aventura de construir la democracia. Lo maravilloso de ver salir a los militares de la pol\u00edtica.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: Fuiste de los pocos de tu generaci\u00f3n que se salvaron de la guerra, porque parec\u00edas haber dudado siempre de la revoluci\u00f3n. En esa \u00e9poca no era tan f\u00e1cil dudar. \u00bfQu\u00e9 crees que te dio ese instintivo escepticismo?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> Quiz\u00e1 me ayud\u00f3 el hecho de que nunca me ha gustado que me den \u00f3rdenes. Es una cosa de car\u00e1cter, a m\u00ed esas estructuras verticales me ponen los pelos de punta. No pude ser <em>boy scout<\/em>, menos pod\u00eda ser guerrillero. Fui a dos reuniones y cuando vi que me daban \u00f3rdenes ya no fui m\u00e1s. Despu\u00e9s estuvo mi abuelo hondure\u00f1o, que era conservador. Cuando trataron de matarlo, lo\u00a0intent\u00f3 alguien de su mismo bando. Probablemente eso me cre\u00f3 resistencia a la fe. Defecar al aire libre y que te caigan los paracaidistas encima no es lo m\u00edo.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"8mup6wm\",\"elType\":\"section\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_layout\":\"\",\"stretch_section\":\"\",\"layout\":\"boxed\",\"content_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"gap\":\"default\",\"height\":\"default\",\"custom_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":400},\"column_position\":\"middle\",\"content_position\":\"\",\"structure\":\"10\",\"section_background\":\"\",\"background_background\":\"\",\"background_color\":\"\",\"background_color_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":0},\"background_color_b\":\"\",\"background_color_b_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"background_gradient_type\":\"linear\",\"background_gradient_angle\":{\"unit\":\"deg\",\"size\":180},\"background_gradient_position\":\"center 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generaci\u00f3n, la que vivi\u00f3 la guerra, aprendi\u00f3 lo importante que era tener un r\u00e9gimen pol\u00edtico m\u00e1s o menos sano. Tuvimos treinta a\u00f1os de alternancia en el poder democr\u00e1tico m\u00e1s o menos regular. Eso a la gente como que la cans\u00f3. Quisieron castigar ese sistema. Lo \u00fanico que funcionaba en El Salvador era la democracia, as\u00ed que la destruyeron para que nada funcionase\u00bb.\u00a0<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"pk9m1ww\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: Escribir en una guerra civil es peligroso, es, de alguna manera, traicionar.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> Escribir se convierte en algo m\u00e1s radical, algo tan radical como la guerrilla. Es una forma de renegar del poder, de poner en el banquillo al poder. Esto se convierte en una opci\u00f3n m\u00e1s radical porque est\u00e1s casi solo. Los otros tienen una fe y t\u00fa no.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: Tus libros tienen mucho humor. Debe ser dif\u00edcil en medio de esa guerra civil tan dura.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> Yo creo que la proximidad de la muerte y del peligro aumentan el humor. El humor se convierte en un mecanismo de resistencia para no enloquecer. La primera vez que ves un cad\u00e1ver vomitas; despu\u00e9s ya no vomitas, pero te quedas impactado; la tercera vez ya dices \u00abqu\u00e9 mal peinado est\u00e1 el cabr\u00f3n este\u00bb.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: El Salvador tiene ahora uno de los presidentes m\u00e1s exc\u00e9ntricos del continente, Nayib Bukele, que hace de la tecnolog\u00eda su obsesi\u00f3n.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/strong> S\u00ed, acaba de aprobar la reelecci\u00f3n inmediata, lo que lo hace comparable a Ch\u00e1vez y Ortega, pero en una extra\u00f1a mezcla de tecnolog\u00eda e ideas new age. Ha convertido el bitcoin en la moneda oficial del Salvador. Preg\u00fantame a m\u00ed qu\u00e9 es el bitcoin y no s\u00e9 explic\u00e1rtelo, hermano. Me es muy dif\u00edcil hacer juicio, lo \u00fanico que s\u00e9 es que est\u00e1 destruyendo la institucionalidad en El Salvador.<\/p><p><strong>Rafael Gumucio: Parece El Salvador un pa\u00eds que siempre estuviera a punto de probar lo inesperado.<\/strong><\/p><p><b>Horacio Castellanos Moya: <\/b>La generaci\u00f3n que gobierna ahora es de despu\u00e9s de la guerra civil. Mi generaci\u00f3n, la que vivi\u00f3 la guerra, aprendi\u00f3 lo importante que era tener un r\u00e9gimen pol\u00edtico m\u00e1s o menos sano. Tuvimos treinta a\u00f1os de alternancia en el poder democr\u00e1tico m\u00e1s o menos regular. Eso a la gente como que la cans\u00f3. Quisieron castigar ese sistema. Lo \u00fanico que funcionaba en El Salvador era la democracia, as\u00ed que la destruyeron para que nada funcionase.<\/p><p><b>Rafael Gumucio: \u00bfC\u00f3mo se explica eso?<\/b><\/p><p><b>Horacio Castellanos Moya:<\/b> Roque Dalton tiene un cuento que se llama \u00abDos retratos de la patria\u00bb. Uno de ellos es la historia de una enanita que trabaja en un circo y tiene un mont\u00f3n de hijos. La enanita va so\u00f1ando que se va ganando la loter\u00eda y qu\u00e9 va a hacer con ella. De repente, se acuerda de su hermana la gorda y piensa en pagarle a un brujo para chingar a la gorda. \u00abMe chingo a la gorda aunque me chingue yo\u00bb, piensa. Ese es un retrato de la patria.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"9bi1dtf\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>OTROS CONTENIDOS DE INTER\u00c9S:<\/strong><\/p><ul style=\\\"list-style-type: circle;\\\"><li><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/el-mapa-de-sal-ivan-de-la-nuez\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\">Cuba entre la Patria y la Muerte<\/span><\/a><\/li><li><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/no-ficcion\/jorge-ramos-nicolas-maduro\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Jorge Ramos con Nicol\u00e1s Maduro: \u00abEl cami\u00f3n de basura no fue un montaje\u00bb<\/a><\/span><\/li><li><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/literatura\/sergio-ramirez-circulo-de-bellas-artes\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\">Sergio Ram\u00edrez: La literatura como oficio 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15 minutos

Horacio Castellanos Moya. Crédito: Gunter Glücklich.

La primera vez que oí a Horacio Castellanos Moya, autor de los ya clásicos El asco. Thomas Bernard en San Salvador e Insensatez, hablaba de Roque Dalton. No lo hacía porque Roque Dalton fuese el escritor salvadoreño más conocido fuera de San Salvador, sino porque su vida y sobre todo su muerte simbolizaban muchos de los dilemas que sufría y sufre ese pequeño país de Centroamérica que ha vivido casi toda su vida en guerra.

Roque Dalton, poeta y ocasional narrador, también fue, como lo sería la mayor parte de los poetas de la generación de Horacio, guerrillero. Pero lo singular de su destino no fue dejar la pluma o la máquina de escribir por las kaláshnikov, sino haber muerto a manos de los propios guerrilleros bajo acusaciones más bien brumosas que nunca han quedado del todo claras. En Roque Dalton: Correspondencia clandestina y otros ensayos, Castellanos Moya aborda esa extraña vida y esa más extraña muerte que marcó a fuego a toda su generación, la de la guerra civil, cuyas consecuencias literarias analiza en los otros ensayos que componen este apasionante libro de no ficción que, como los de ficción del mismo autor, te deja más perplejo aún al final que cuando lo comenzaste.

Rafael Gumucio: ¿Por qué mataron a Roque Dalton? —le pregunto por Zoom a Castellanos Moya, que vive quizá en el perfecto reverse de San Salvador o de su Honduras natal, en Iowa, donde da clases de escritura creativa.

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Podría suponer muchas cosas, pero no quise en el libro ir más allá de los datos a los que tuve acceso al leer la correspondencia privada de Roque Dalton de su época clandestina. Quise escribir lo que pude leer ahí, pero quedan muchas preguntas abiertas. ¿Qué pasó realmente? ¿Por qué? ¿Lo cambiaron por alguien? No se sabe. Lo único que sé es que los agentes de la CIA que trabajaron en El Salvador en los sesenta e interrogaron a Dalton entonces habían llegado a lugares importantes dentro de la agencia el año en que mataron a Dalton.

Rafael Gumucio: Es muy extraña la correspondencia. Está todo en clave cuando está en San Salvador y todo abierto y sin casi ninguna clave cuando está en México. Es como si creyera que al estar en México era invulnerable. 

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Roque Dalton es una persona cuyos requerimientos como poeta son más importantes que su rol en la guerrilla. Va a México, sabiendo que es objetivo de la CIA y del ejército salvadoreño, a tener una relación con una examante. También se preocupa de los derechos de autor y de los premios de sus libros. De pronto se vio envuelto en los devaneos de la Guerra Fría, en un juego de poder que le quedaba grande.

Rafael Gumucio: ¿Crees que Cuba lo abandonó? Al menos parece no haber hecho nada para salvarlo.

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Roque Dalton fue un agente de la Revolución cubana. Recibió cursos de inteligencia y contrainteligencia en Cuba. Era uno de los cinco o seis salvadoreños que tenían ese entrenamiento. Lo que también sabemos es que el agente de inteligencia de Cuba encargado de Centroamérica desertó y se fue a trabajar a la CIA. Él sabía quiénes estaban entrenando o no en inteligencia en El Salvador.

Rafael Gumucio: En los sesenta y setenta en Centroamérica parecía que ser poeta te llevaba a ser guerrillero fatalmente.

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Roque Dalton fue el primer poeta que se hizo abiertamente comunista cuando estaba prohibido serlo. Después hubo un proceso de radicalización que produce lo que tú dices, que la poesía y la guerrilla estuvieran unidas, lo que es una paradoja porque es muy difícil que un hombre con habilidad para la escritura pueda tener habilidades para el poder, porque al final ser soldado es administrar el poder. La lucha por el poder es lo contrario de la poesía.

Rafael Gumucio: ¿En qué sentido?

Horacio Castellanos Moya: La relación con la palabra es completamente distinta. Para el poeta, la palabra es otra cosa que para el político. El poeta soldado o abandona el rol de soldado o muere en combate, que es lo ideal para el poeta. Lo paradójico en el caso de Roque Dalton es que no muere en combate, sino que muere a manos de la propia guerrilla. Eso le agrega una dimensión trágica a su figura, la de un poeta que está metido en una intriga de poder mucho más grande de lo que pudo imaginar.

«Es muy difícil que un hombre con habilidad para la escritura pueda tener habilidades para el poder, porque al final ser soldado es administrar el poder. La lucha por el poder es lo contrario de la poesía».

Rafael Gumucio: Esto de matar a uno de los tuyos parece algo bastante común en la izquierda latinoamericana. ¿Qué la lleva a fragmentarse de esa manera y formar miles de facciones?

Horacio Castellanos Moya: No creo que esto sea un fenómeno exclusivo de la izquierda latinoamericana. Yo creo que es más bien un fenómeno que tiene que ver con el poder. La misma derecha cuando pierde el poder se fragmenta. El poder aglutina, la falta de poder dispersa. La diferencia es que la derecha vende estabilidad y la izquierda quiere vender sueños, y eso por supuesto lleva las cosas a otro nivel.

Rafael Gumucio: A un nivel de paroxismo quizá.

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Uno de los problemas más grandes de la actualidad es que no reconozco, quizá por ignorancia mía, un pensamiento de izquierda latinoamericano, algo que digas: «Esta gente está tratando de pensar fuera de las categorías que nos dan los europeos y los anglosajones». Eso me cuesta verlo como pensamiento, aunque como práctica política puede que se haya intentado. Como no tiene pensamiento, tiene que aglutinar a las personas en torno a una serie de ilusiones que una vez en el poder no puede cumplir, y después tiene que pagar el precio de esas ilusiones que no se cumplen.

Rafael Gumucio: ¿Qué ilusiones?

Horacio Castellanos Moya: La primera ilusión es la ilusión de la igualdad económica. Eso es una ilusión en el mundo actual, porque llega un gobierno y el margen de decisión es muy poco. Seguimos siendo el vagón de cola de Occidente. Quizá la única aportación a Occidente son la literatura y el arte. Para mí es misterioso, y eso incluye a la derecha. Ninguno de nuestros países ha dado el salto. Ni Brasil ni Argentina, que estuvieron tan cerca. ¿Por qué Latinoamérica sigue siendo Latinoamérica? Es muy fácil echarle la culpa al imperialismo, pero hay algo que no es el imperialismo que nos hace seguir en el lugar en que estamos. Pero ya estamos hablando de metafísica.

Rafael Gumucio: Cuentas en el libro que tu único pasaporte es el pasaporte salvadoreño, que te ha metido en todo tipo de problemas en las fronteras.

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Realmente es poco práctico ese pasaporte, pero la verdad es que hasta ahora no me he planteado cambiarlo. Me da la impresión de que voy a perder lo poco que me queda de El Salvador. Sé racionalmente que es una tontería. El hecho es que viví trece años en México, tengo dos hijos mexicanos y nunca pensé en hacerme mexicano. Tengo diez años en Estados Unidos y tampoco he pensado en conseguir un pasaporte de los Estados Unidos.

«Seguimos siendo el vagón de cola de Occidente. Para mí es misterioso, y eso incluye a la derecha. Ninguno de nuestros países ha dado el salto. Ni Brasil ni Argentina, que estuvieron tan cerca. ¿Por qué Latinoamérica sigue siendo Latinoamérica? Es muy fácil echarle la culpa al imperialismo, pero hay algo que no es el imperialismo que nos hace seguir en el lugar en que estamos». 

Rafael Gumucio: Es una incomodidad en las fronteras, pero es una bendición literaria. O sea, venir de El Salvador es una fuente inagotable de relatos.

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Es cierto, la vida ha sido tan intensa, las impresiones, tan fuertes, que hay un cofre de memorias que te permiten sacar historias. Algunas son tan dolorosas que no se pueden escribir. Pero indudablemente las inestabilidades son un motor para escribir. La verdad es que yo no elegí nada. Ni de qué escribir ni de qué no escribir. Tampoco elegí escribir. Me di cuenta de que era sordo y no pude ser músico, y escribí aunque venía de un mundo en que era extrañísimo escribir. Vivir en El Salvador me ha obligado a pensar en el fenómeno de la violencia de una manera que no habría pensado nunca de nacer en Uruguay.

Rafael Gumucio: ¿Escribir ayuda a comprender la violencia?

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Lo único que comprendes es que está dentro de vos. La violencia no es algo que traen los marcianos. Hay periodos de civilización en que se canaliza de otra forma, pero yo creo que eso viene en los genes de todos. Para mí escribir no es tanto reconocer la violencia en los otros sino en mí mismo, reconocer que podría tener las peores expresiones de violencia si no tuviera un mecanismo de control.

Rafael Gumucio: Escapaste muy joven a Canadá y, sin embargo, relatas cómo vuelves a San Salvador, sabiendo el peligro que implicaba una y otra vez.

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Hace veinte años que no vuelvo, que solo voy de viaje. Creo que la vez que regresé más en serio fue al final de la guerra civil. Ahí había proyectos periodísticos y de otras cosas. Había la impresión de que se podía construir algo, y la energía y la juventud. Fue la aventura de construir la democracia. Lo maravilloso de ver salir a los militares de la política.

Rafael Gumucio: Fuiste de los pocos de tu generación que se salvaron de la guerra, porque parecías haber dudado siempre de la revolución. En esa época no era tan fácil dudar. ¿Qué crees que te dio ese instintivo escepticismo?

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Quizá me ayudó el hecho de que nunca me ha gustado que me den órdenes. Es una cosa de carácter, a mí esas estructuras verticales me ponen los pelos de punta. No pude ser boy scout, menos podía ser guerrillero. Fui a dos reuniones y cuando vi que me daban órdenes ya no fui más. Después estuvo mi abuelo hondureño, que era conservador. Cuando trataron de matarlo, lo intentó alguien de su mismo bando. Probablemente eso me creó resistencia a la fe. Defecar al aire libre y que te caigan los paracaidistas encima no es lo mío.

«Mi generación, la que vivió la guerra, aprendió lo importante que era tener un régimen político más o menos sano. Tuvimos treinta años de alternancia en el poder democrático más o menos regular. Eso a la gente como que la cansó. Quisieron castigar ese sistema. Lo único que funcionaba en El Salvador era la democracia, así que la destruyeron para que nada funcionase». 

Rafael Gumucio: Escribir en una guerra civil es peligroso, es, de alguna manera, traicionar.

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Escribir se convierte en algo más radical, algo tan radical como la guerrilla. Es una forma de renegar del poder, de poner en el banquillo al poder. Esto se convierte en una opción más radical porque estás casi solo. Los otros tienen una fe y tú no.

Rafael Gumucio: Tus libros tienen mucho humor. Debe ser difícil en medio de esa guerra civil tan dura.

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Yo creo que la proximidad de la muerte y del peligro aumentan el humor. El humor se convierte en un mecanismo de resistencia para no enloquecer. La primera vez que ves un cadáver vomitas; después ya no vomitas, pero te quedas impactado; la tercera vez ya dices «qué mal peinado está el cabrón este».

Rafael Gumucio: El Salvador tiene ahora uno de los presidentes más excéntricos del continente, Nayib Bukele, que hace de la tecnología su obsesión.

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Sí, acaba de aprobar la reelección inmediata, lo que lo hace comparable a Chávez y Ortega, pero en una extraña mezcla de tecnología e ideas new age. Ha convertido el bitcoin en la moneda oficial del Salvador. Pregúntame a mí qué es el bitcoin y no sé explicártelo, hermano. Me es muy difícil hacer juicio, lo único que sé es que está destruyendo la institucionalidad en El Salvador.

Rafael Gumucio: Parece El Salvador un país que siempre estuviera a punto de probar lo inesperado.

Horacio Castellanos Moya: La generación que gobierna ahora es de después de la guerra civil. Mi generación, la que vivió la guerra, aprendió lo importante que era tener un régimen político más o menos sano. Tuvimos treinta años de alternancia en el poder democrático más o menos regular. Eso a la gente como que la cansó. Quisieron castigar ese sistema. Lo único que funcionaba en El Salvador era la democracia, así que la destruyeron para que nada funcionase.

Rafael Gumucio: ¿Cómo se explica eso?

Horacio Castellanos Moya: Roque Dalton tiene un cuento que se llama «Dos retratos de la patria». Uno de ellos es la historia de una enanita que trabaja en un circo y tiene un montón de hijos. La enanita va soñando que se va ganando la lotería y qué va a hacer con ella. De repente, se acuerda de su hermana la gorda y piensa en pagarle a un brujo para chingar a la gorda. «Me chingo a la gorda aunque me chingue yo», piensa. Ese es un retrato de la patria.

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