Entrevistas

Jorge Luis Borges: «Me veo obligado a razonar, pero yo prefiero soñar»

Con ochenta años y convertido hacía tiempo en el emblema de la literatura argentina, Jorge Luis Borges emprendió en 1980 una gira por Estados Unidos invitado por algunas de las universidades más reconocidas del país. En el Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.), Borges habló sobre el sentido del universo con el astrofísico Kenneth Brecher, sobre misticismo con el experto en la cábala Jaime Alazraki y sobre los límites entre la realidad y la ficción con el poeta Willis Barnstone; evocó sueños, pesadillas y mitos, y respondió preguntas de una audiencia multitudinaria sin el menor asomo de solemnidad: un escenario casi teatral en el que el escritor argentino se movía a sus anchas aun con su imagen de prócer cultural a cuestas. Reproducimos a continuación un fragmento de ese diálogo incluido en el extraordinario «Borges: el misterio esencial» (Sudamericana), que reúne todas las conferencias de aquel viaje.

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En el Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.), Borges habl\u00f3 sobre el sentido del universo con el astrof\u00edsico Kenneth Brecher, sobre misticismo con el experto en la c\u00e1bala Jaime Alazraki y sobre los l\u00edmites entre la realidad y la ficci\u00f3n con el poeta Willis Barnstone; evoc\u00f3 sue\u00f1os, pesadillas y mitos, y respondi\u00f3 preguntas de una audiencia multitudinaria sin el menor asomo de solemnidad: un escenario casi teatral en el que el escritor argentino se mov\u00eda a sus anchas aun con su imagen de pr\u00f3cer cultural a cuestas. 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Alazraki:<\/strong> \u00bfPodr\u00eda usted aclararnos en qu\u00e9 consiste su deuda con el idioma ingl\u00e9s?<br \/><br \/><strong>Jorge Luis Borges:<\/strong> Creo que el hecho capital de mi vida ha sido la biblioteca de mi padre. All\u00ed fue donde hice la mayor\u00eda de mis lecturas. Era una biblioteca de libros ingleses. Mi padre se sab\u00eda de memoria tantas estrofas de Keats, de Shelley, de Swinburne\u2026 Se sab\u00eda de memoria el Rubaiyat de Fitzgerald, y tambi\u00e9n recuerdo a mi padre recitando versos de Poe. Y muchos de esos versos me han acompa\u00f1ado desde entonces. La poes\u00eda me lleg\u00f3 a trav\u00e9s del idioma ingl\u00e9s. Luego me lleg\u00f3 tambi\u00e9n a trav\u00e9s del castellano, especialmente a trav\u00e9s de aquellos versos que no entend\u00eda; despu\u00e9s de todo, lo importante de la poes\u00eda no es entenderla, sino sentirla. Y yo sent\u00ed la poes\u00eda sin entenderla cuando era chico, y todo eso me lleg\u00f3 a trav\u00e9s de mi padre. Y mi madre, que falleci\u00f3 hace cinco a\u00f1os, sol\u00eda decir que cuando recito versos ingleses, especialmente cuando recito versos de Swinburne, o de Keats, lo hago con la voz de mi padre, que ha muerto.<\/p><p><strong>Barnstone:<\/strong> Al comienzo de la <em>Vita Nuova<\/em>, Dante cuenta c\u00f3mo describe un dictado que le fue dado por su memoria. Escribe: \u00abEn aquella parte del libro de mi memoria, antes de la cual poco podr\u00eda leerse, hay una r\u00fabrica que dice: <em>incipit vita nuova<\/em>. Bajo esta r\u00fabrica encuentro escritas las palabras que es mi intenci\u00f3n transcribir en este librito; y si no todas, al menos su sentido\u00bb. \u00bfPodr\u00eda explicarnos qu\u00e9 cosas ha recibido usted del libro de su memoria, o del \u00e1mbito, cualquiera sea \u00e9ste, en el que usted escucha esa 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Yo pienso en el acto de escribir como en un dictado. De pronto s\u00e9 que algo va a ocurrir. Entonces intento ponerme, digamos, en una actitud lo m\u00e1s pasiva posible, para no intervenir. Y entonces vislumbro algo. Siempre hay una inspiraci\u00f3n inicial, parcial. A veces me es dada una l\u00ednea, a veces me es dado un argumento, o en un sue\u00f1o me son dadas una palabra, o varias palabras. Por ejemplo, durante un viaje anterior a los Estados Unidos, en East Lansing, hace ya unos cuantos a\u00f1os, tuve un sue\u00f1o que, al despertar, ya hab\u00eda olvidado por completo, pero pude retener una frase: \u00abTe vendo la memoria de Shakespeare\u00bb. Y luego despert\u00e9. Se la dije a Mar\u00eda Kodama, y ella me dijo: \u00abAh\u00ed puede haber un cuento\u00bb. Y lo dej\u00e9 decantar. Yo intento no intervenir en lo que el Esp\u00edritu Santo, o la inspiraci\u00f3n, o la musa, o, como dicen hoy, el inconsciente me brindan. Entonces escrib\u00ed ese cuento. Lo van a publicar ahora en Buenos Aires. Se llama \u00abLa memoria de Shakespeare\u00bb. Pero en mi cuento la memoria personal de Shakespeare no se vende. S\u00f3lo se regala. Al comienzo parece un don. Pero al final resulta intolerable para quien la recibe, y el protagonista del cuento termina agobiado por los recuerdos personales de 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Usted dict\u00f3 varias conferencias en la Argentina sobre el tema de\u2026<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> S\u00ed, demasiadas.<br \/><br \/><strong>Alazraki:<\/strong> Bueno, no es as\u00ed\u2026 sobre un tema en particular que s\u00e9 que interesa, el tema de la C\u00e1bala. Ya en 1926 public\u00f3 un ensayo sobre este tema, \u00abHistoria de los \u00e1ngeles\u00bb, en El tama\u00f1o de mi esperanza. Ahora bien, su ficci\u00f3n...<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> Yo me siento profundamente avergonzado de ese libro, pero s\u00ed, contin\u00fae. He tratado de olvidarlo. Es un libro muy malo.<br \/><br \/><strong>Alazraki:<\/strong> S\u00e9 que no le gusta.<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> No. Mejor evitar estos temas desagradables.<br \/><br \/><strong>Alazraki:<\/strong> S\u00e9 que incluso lleg\u00f3 al extremo de ir librer\u00eda por librer\u00eda, buscando ejemplares de ese libro\u2026<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> S\u00ed... Para quemarlos. Fue un acto de justicia.<br \/><br \/><strong>Alazraki:<\/strong> Sin embargo, hay varios ensayos en ese libro que estoy seguro que usted considera redimibles.<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> Nunca he rele\u00eddo ese libro. No he rele\u00eddo ninguno de mis libros, en realidad.<\/p><p><strong>Alazraki:<\/strong> Pero lo que ese libro demuestra, al menos, es que usted sent\u00eda ya inter\u00e9s por la c\u00e1bala, siendo a\u00fan una persona muy joven.<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> Supongo que la c\u00e1bala significa mucho para m\u00ed porque tengo antepasados jud\u00edos. El apellido de mi madre era Acevedo, otro apellido de su familia era Pinedo. Son apellidos sefard\u00edes. Pero adem\u00e1s encuentro una idea muy interesante en la c\u00e1bala, una idea que tuvieron tambi\u00e9n Carlyle y Le\u00f3n Bloy: es la idea de que el universo es un sistema de s\u00edmbolos, y que el universo entero, incluyendo a las estrellas, es una especie de escritura secreta de Dios. Y yo creo que esa idea es lo que m\u00e1s me atrae de la c\u00e1bala. He le\u00eddo muchos libros sobre el tema. Yo les aconsejar\u00eda que lean \u2014aunque, qui\u00e9n soy yo para aconsejar a nadie\u2014 <em>Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism<\/em>, de Gershom Scholem. Es realmente la mejor introducci\u00f3n al tema. Conoc\u00ed a Scholem en Jerusalem. Luego me envi\u00f3 otro libro sobre el Golem. El primer libro que le\u00ed en alem\u00e1n fue <em>Der Golem<\/em>, de Meyrink. Lo le\u00ed entero y ah\u00ed encontr\u00e9 esa idea que siempre me interes\u00f3, la idea del doble, o, como dicen en Escocia, del <em>fetch<\/em>, ya que el <em>fetch<\/em> es la imagen de uno mismo que viene a buscarlo a uno y llevarlo hacia la muerte. Mientras que en alem\u00e1n se utiliza la palabra <em>Doppelg\u00e4nger<\/em>, que se refiere a un hombre, a un hombre invisible, que camina al lado de uno y tiene nuestra misma apariencia. La idea, claro, de Jekyll y Hyde, y de <em>El retrato de Dorian Gray<\/em>, el alter ego, y todo eso. Me pregunto si tengo derecho a estudiar c\u00e1bala. Y sin embargo, sigo estudi\u00e1ndola, por puro placer. He pronunciado la palabra placer, y esa es una palabra importante: la felicidad no es algo para tomar a la ligera.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"1kvgfv0\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abYo soy incapaz de pensamiento abstracto. Tanto del de los griegos como del de los hebreos. Tiendo a pensar, no a trav\u00e9s de la raz\u00f3n, sino por medio de f\u00e1bulas. Esa es mi divisa\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"f307suw\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Barnstone:<\/strong> Borges, quer\u00eda hacerle una pregunta similar sobre los gn\u00f3sticos y su propia noci\u00f3n de <em>otherness<\/em>, \u00abotredad\u00bb.<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> <em>Otherness<\/em> es una buena palabra. Usted, claro, acaba de inventarla.<br \/><br \/><strong>Barnstone:<\/strong> En los textos gn\u00f3sticos hay ciertas nociones que usted tal vez quiera comentar.<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> Bueno, \u00abaltruismo\u00bb es la misma palabra que <em>otherness<\/em>.<br \/><br \/><strong>Barnstone:<\/strong> Espec\u00edficamente, el autor Marcion habla del dios ajeno, desconocido, el Padre sin nombre. Esta vida ajena o distinta es la vida verdadera, ya que el Dios ajeno es el Dios verdadero. Y el objetivo de los gn\u00f3sticos es liberar al yo interior de cada persona de sus ataduras a este mundo, del error de este mundo, para que pueda regresar a la vida verdadera.<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> Para encontrar el pl\u00e9roma. Creo que esa es la palabra.<br \/><br \/><strong>Barnstone:<\/strong> S\u00ed, correcto, el pl\u00e9roma, el \u00e1mbito divino con sus treinta entidades divinas. \u00bfPodr\u00eda comentar estas ideas gn\u00f3sticas de la otredad, de mundos err\u00f3neos, y de la salvaci\u00f3n alcanzada a trav\u00e9s de la huida de este mundo hacia la luz, hacia el otro mundo?<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> Yo creo que la vida, yo creo que el mundo, es una pesadilla, pero no podemos escapar de \u00e9l y seguiremos so\u00f1\u00e1ndolo. Y tampoco nos es dado alcanzar la salvaci\u00f3n; la salvaci\u00f3n est\u00e1 m\u00e1s all\u00e1 de nosotros. Y sin embargo yo hago lo mejor que puedo e intento encontrar mi salvaci\u00f3n en el acto de escribir, en seguir escribiendo, aun sin demasiada esperanza. \u00bfQu\u00e9 otra cosa puedo hacer? Tengo m\u00e1s de ochenta a\u00f1os, soy ciego, paso la mayor parte del tiempo solo. \u00bfQu\u00e9 otra cosa puedo hacer, excepto seguir so\u00f1ando, y luego seguir escribiendo, y luego, desoyendo el consejo de mi padre, apurarme a publicar mis borradores? Ese es mi destino. Mi destino es pensar que todas las cosas, todas las experiencias, me han sido dadas para crear belleza. S\u00e9 que he fracasado, que seguir\u00e9 fracasando, pero esa sigue siendo la \u00fanica justificaci\u00f3n de mi vida: seguir viviendo, seguir estando feliz, triste, perplejo, asombrado \u2014yo vivo en un estado continuo de asombro\u2014 y luego intentar transformar esas experiencias en poes\u00eda. Y de todas esas experiencias, la m\u00e1s grata es la lectura\u2026 Aunque hay algo mucho mejor que leer, y es releer, adentrarse a\u00fan m\u00e1s en el libro, enriqueci\u00e9ndolo, porque uno ya lo ha le\u00eddo. Yo aconsejar\u00eda a la gente que lea poco, pero que relea 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\u00bfDir\u00eda usted que en sus cuentos filos\u00f3ficos y en sus ensayos, usted est\u00e1 creando im\u00e1genes, o describiendo ideas metaf\u00edsicas en s\u00ed mismas? \u00bfCu\u00e1l es la caracter\u00edstica m\u00e1s distintiva de sus textos, el lenguaje o las nociones filos\u00f3ficas?<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> Creo que las im\u00e1genes me interesan m\u00e1s que las ideas. Yo soy incapaz de pensamiento abstracto. Tanto del de los griegos como del de los hebreos. Tiendo a pensar, no a trav\u00e9s de la raz\u00f3n, sino por medio de f\u00e1bulas. Esa es mi divisa. Es cierto que me veo obligado a razonar de vez en cuando, y entonces lo hago muy torpemente. Pero yo prefiero so\u00f1ar. Prefiero las im\u00e1genes. Kipling dijo que a un escritor le es dado escribir una f\u00e1bula, pero no conocer la moraleja que se desprende de ella, ya que los lectores pueden llegar a interpretarla de un modo acaso muy diferente de la intenci\u00f3n que el autor tuvo al escribirla. De manera que yo intento seguir leyendo, e intento seguir pensando en met\u00e1foras o en f\u00e1bulas m\u00e1s que en argumentos. Yo siempre prefiero que mi interlocutor tenga raz\u00f3n.<\/p><p><strong>Miembro de la audiencia:<\/strong> Tanto el poema \u00e9pico Beowulf como muchas de las sagas islandesas nos hablan de h\u00e9roes que representan conductas sociales idealizadas, al tiempo que se\u00f1alan las contradicciones inherentes a esos sistemas sociales: por ejemplo, la inevitabilidad de las ri\u00f1as entre clanes, la manera en que los h\u00e9roes valoraban la temeridad y el coraje por encima de toda consideraci\u00f3n pr\u00e1ctica, etc\u00e9tera. \u00bfCree usted que la literatura moderna puede lograr este mismo efecto?<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> Deber\u00eda responder que me consta que esto es as\u00ed, ya que el sentido \u00e9pico est\u00e1 presente en obras tales como <em>C\u00e9sar y Cleopatra<\/em> de Bernard Shaw, o <em>Los siete pilares de la sabidur\u00eda<\/em> de Lawrence. All\u00ed encontramos a la \u00e9pica. Yo siempre he sentido m\u00e1s la poes\u00eda \u00e9pica que la l\u00edrica. Creo que podemos aspirar a la \u00e9pica hoy en d\u00eda. \u00bfPor qu\u00e9 pensar que esa forma tan elevada del arte nos est\u00e1 vedada? Pero es cierto que quiz\u00e1 debamos buscarla de un modo diferente. Acaso la \u00e9pica no pueda ser forjada hoy en d\u00eda en verso, pero podemos sin duda forjarla en prosa. Acabo de dar unos pocos ejemplos pero sin duda hay muchos m\u00e1s. Por ejemplo, Whitman pensaba que <em>Hojas de hierba<\/em> era una obra \u00e9pica, no una serie de poemas breves. Y ten\u00eda raz\u00f3n, ya que logr\u00f3 crear esa figura mitol\u00f3gica llamada Walt Whitman. De manera que no creo que la \u00e9pica nos est\u00e9 vedada. Nada nos est\u00e1 vedado. Est\u00e1 en nosotros buscarla, o, al menos, intentarlo.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"bxmx38l\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abNo creo que la \u00e9pica nos est\u00e9 vedada. Nada nos est\u00e1 vedado. Est\u00e1 en nosotros buscarla, o, al menos, intentarlo\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"o9mb6kd\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>Barnstone:<\/strong> Usted habla con frecuencia sobre la muerte con cierta esperanza, con cierta expectativa. \u00bfNo siente temor o enojo ante la muerte? \u00bfPodr\u00eda decirnos algo acerca del tiempo, o ausencia de tiempo, en la muerte?<br \/><br \/><strong>Borges:<\/strong> Cuando me siento desdichado \u2014y me permito sentirme desdichado de vez en cuando\u2014 pienso en la muerte como la gran salvaci\u00f3n. Despu\u00e9s de todo, si voy a morir, \u00bfqu\u00e9 puede importarme lo que le ocurre a Jorge Luis Borges? No lo ver\u00e9 m\u00e1s. Pienso en la muerte como una gran esperanza, la esperanza de ser totalmente borrado, anulado. Cuento con ello, y s\u00e9 que no habr\u00e1 vida m\u00e1s all\u00e1, ni tampoco causa alguna para el temor ni la esperanza. Simplemente desapareceremos, y as\u00ed es como debe ser. Pienso en la inmortalidad como una amenaza, pero una amenaza que nunca se cumplir\u00e1. Yo estoy seguro de no ser personalmente inmortal. Y siento que la muerte ser\u00e1 una suerte de felicidad, ya que \u00bfqu\u00e9 mejor destino puede haber que la indiferencia y el olvido? Eso es lo que siento acerca de la muerte.<br \/><br \/><br \/><br \/><strong><br \/>OTROS CONTENIDOS DE INTER\u00c9S:<\/strong><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/literatura\/borges-y-bioy-casares-alias#\\\">Borges y Bioy Casares: la bestia equil\u00e1tera<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/literatura\/ulises-carlos-gamerro-salas-subirat#\\\">\u00abUlises\u00bb en su laberinto castellano<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/literatura\/cervantes-shakespeare-quijote-cardenio#\\\">Cuando Shakespeare conoci\u00f3 al Quijote<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"ct57hrg\",\"elType\":\"section\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_layout\":\"\",\"stretch_section\":\"section-stretched\",\"layout\":\"full_width\",\"content_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"gap\":\"default\",\"height\":\"default\",\"custom_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":400},\"column_position\":\"middle\",\"content_position\":\"\",\"structure\":\"10\",\"section_background\":\"\",\"background_background\":\"\",\"background_color\":\"\",\"background_color_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":0},\"background_color_b\":\"\",\"background_color_b_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"background_gradient_type\":\"linear\",\"background_gradient_angle\":{\"unit\":\"deg\",\"size\":180},\"background_gradient_position\":\"center 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15 minutos

 Crédito: Max Rompo.

Jaime Alazraki: ¿Podría usted aclararnos en qué consiste su deuda con el idioma inglés?

Jorge Luis Borges: Creo que el hecho capital de mi vida ha sido la biblioteca de mi padre. Allí fue donde hice la mayoría de mis lecturas. Era una biblioteca de libros ingleses. Mi padre se sabía de memoria tantas estrofas de Keats, de Shelley, de Swinburne… Se sabía de memoria el Rubaiyat de Fitzgerald, y también recuerdo a mi padre recitando versos de Poe. Y muchos de esos versos me han acompañado desde entonces. La poesía me llegó a través del idioma inglés. Luego me llegó también a través del castellano, especialmente a través de aquellos versos que no entendía; después de todo, lo importante de la poesía no es entenderla, sino sentirla. Y yo sentí la poesía sin entenderla cuando era chico, y todo eso me llegó a través de mi padre. Y mi madre, que falleció hace cinco años, solía decir que cuando recito versos ingleses, especialmente cuando recito versos de Swinburne, o de Keats, lo hago con la voz de mi padre, que ha muerto.

Barnstone: Al comienzo de la Vita Nuova, Dante cuenta cómo describe un dictado que le fue dado por su memoria. Escribe: «En aquella parte del libro de mi memoria, antes de la cual poco podría leerse, hay una rúbrica que dice: incipit vita nuova. Bajo esta rúbrica encuentro escritas las palabras que es mi intención transcribir en este librito; y si no todas, al menos su sentido». ¿Podría explicarnos qué cosas ha recibido usted del libro de su memoria, o del ámbito, cualquiera sea éste, en el que usted escucha esa voz?

Borges: Yo pienso en el acto de escribir como en un dictado. De pronto sé que algo va a ocurrir. Entonces intento ponerme, digamos, en una actitud lo más pasiva posible, para no intervenir. Y entonces vislumbro algo. Siempre hay una inspiración inicial, parcial. A veces me es dada una línea, a veces me es dado un argumento, o en un sueño me son dadas una palabra, o varias palabras. Por ejemplo, durante un viaje anterior a los Estados Unidos, en East Lansing, hace ya unos cuantos años, tuve un sueño que, al despertar, ya había olvidado por completo, pero pude retener una frase: «Te vendo la memoria de Shakespeare». Y luego desperté. Se la dije a María Kodama, y ella me dijo: «Ahí puede haber un cuento». Y lo dejé decantar. Yo intento no intervenir en lo que el Espíritu Santo, o la inspiración, o la musa, o, como dicen hoy, el inconsciente me brindan. Entonces escribí ese cuento. Lo van a publicar ahora en Buenos Aires. Se llama «La memoria de Shakespeare». Pero en mi cuento la memoria personal de Shakespeare no se vende. Sólo se regala. Al comienzo parece un don. Pero al final resulta intolerable para quien la recibe, y el protagonista del cuento termina agobiado por los recuerdos personales de Shakespeare.

«Tengo más de ochenta años, soy ciego, paso la mayor parte del tiempo solo. ¿Qué otra cosa puedo hacer, excepto seguir soñando, y luego seguir escribiendo, y luego, desoyendo el consejo de mi padre, apurarme a publicar mis borradores?»

Kenneth Brecher: Los físicos hacemos un esfuerzo constante por reducir a un mundo observable conformado por fenómenos complejos a una serie de principios básicos, a unos pocos principios elementales. Pero en todos sus escritos usted parece estar intentando demostrar que la complejidad del universo es tan inmensa, que por más que uno intente abarcarla, resultará imposible de descifrar. Me da la sensación de que usted siente que el universo es esencialmente complejo e irreductible, y que todos los intentos del ser humano por comprender al universo están destinados, a la larga, al fracaso. ¿Es acaso esta idea que acabo de esbozar, una descripción correcta de su visión del mundo? ¿Cuál es su cosmovisión personal?

Borges: Bueno, suponiendo que tenga alguna, claro. Yo creo que el universo es un enigma. Y lo que tiene de maravilloso es, precisamente, que ese enigma no puede ser resuelto. Pero, claro, lo que sucede es que yo considero que el universo necesita ese misterio. Yo vivo en un perpetuo estado de asombro. Por ejemplo, yo nací en Buenos Aires en 1899, y hoy estoy aquí, en los Estados Unidos, rodeado de amigos. Todo esto tiene algo de increíble, y es, sin embargo, cierto. O por lo menos, a mí me parece cierto. Tal vez no esté realmente aquí, al fin de cuentas.

Rodrigo Fresán

  Crédito: Getty Images.

Alazraki: Usted dictó varias conferencias en la Argentina sobre el tema de…

Borges: Sí, demasiadas.

Alazraki: Bueno, no es así… sobre un tema en particular que sé que interesa, el tema de la Cábala. Ya en 1926 publicó un ensayo sobre este tema, «Historia de los ángeles», en El tamaño de mi esperanza. Ahora bien, su ficción...

Borges: Yo me siento profundamente avergonzado de ese libro, pero sí, continúe. He tratado de olvidarlo. Es un libro muy malo.

Alazraki: Sé que no le gusta.

Borges: No. Mejor evitar estos temas desagradables.

Alazraki: Sé que incluso llegó al extremo de ir librería por librería, buscando ejemplares de ese libro…

Borges: Sí... Para quemarlos. Fue un acto de justicia.

Alazraki: Sin embargo, hay varios ensayos en ese libro que estoy seguro que usted considera redimibles.

Borges: Nunca he releído ese libro. No he releído ninguno de mis libros, en realidad.

Alazraki: Pero lo que ese libro demuestra, al menos, es que usted sentía ya interés por la cábala, siendo aún una persona muy joven.

Borges: Supongo que la cábala significa mucho para mí porque tengo antepasados judíos. El apellido de mi madre era Acevedo, otro apellido de su familia era Pinedo. Son apellidos sefardíes. Pero además encuentro una idea muy interesante en la cábala, una idea que tuvieron también Carlyle y León Bloy: es la idea de que el universo es un sistema de símbolos, y que el universo entero, incluyendo a las estrellas, es una especie de escritura secreta de Dios. Y yo creo que esa idea es lo que más me atrae de la cábala. He leído muchos libros sobre el tema. Yo les aconsejaría que lean —aunque, quién soy yo para aconsejar a nadie— Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism, de Gershom Scholem. Es realmente la mejor introducción al tema. Conocí a Scholem en Jerusalem. Luego me envió otro libro sobre el Golem. El primer libro que leí en alemán fue Der Golem, de Meyrink. Lo leí entero y ahí encontré esa idea que siempre me interesó, la idea del doble, o, como dicen en Escocia, del fetch, ya que el fetch es la imagen de uno mismo que viene a buscarlo a uno y llevarlo hacia la muerte. Mientras que en alemán se utiliza la palabra Doppelgänger, que se refiere a un hombre, a un hombre invisible, que camina al lado de uno y tiene nuestra misma apariencia. La idea, claro, de Jekyll y Hyde, y de El retrato de Dorian Gray, el alter ego, y todo eso. Me pregunto si tengo derecho a estudiar cábala. Y sin embargo, sigo estudiándola, por puro placer. He pronunciado la palabra placer, y esa es una palabra importante: la felicidad no es algo para tomar a la ligera.

«Yo soy incapaz de pensamiento abstracto. Tanto del de los griegos como del de los hebreos. Tiendo a pensar, no a través de la razón, sino por medio de fábulas. Esa es mi divisa».

Barnstone: Borges, quería hacerle una pregunta similar sobre los gnósticos y su propia noción de otherness, «otredad».

Borges: Otherness es una buena palabra. Usted, claro, acaba de inventarla.

Barnstone: En los textos gnósticos hay ciertas nociones que usted tal vez quiera comentar.

Borges: Bueno, «altruismo» es la misma palabra que otherness.

Barnstone: Específicamente, el autor Marcion habla del dios ajeno, desconocido, el Padre sin nombre. Esta vida ajena o distinta es la vida verdadera, ya que el Dios ajeno es el Dios verdadero. Y el objetivo de los gnósticos es liberar al yo interior de cada persona de sus ataduras a este mundo, del error de este mundo, para que pueda regresar a la vida verdadera.

Borges: Para encontrar el pléroma. Creo que esa es la palabra.

Barnstone: Sí, correcto, el pléroma, el ámbito divino con sus treinta entidades divinas. ¿Podría comentar estas ideas gnósticas de la otredad, de mundos erróneos, y de la salvación alcanzada a través de la huida de este mundo hacia la luz, hacia el otro mundo?

Borges: Yo creo que la vida, yo creo que el mundo, es una pesadilla, pero no podemos escapar de él y seguiremos soñándolo. Y tampoco nos es dado alcanzar la salvación; la salvación está más allá de nosotros. Y sin embargo yo hago lo mejor que puedo e intento encontrar mi salvación en el acto de escribir, en seguir escribiendo, aun sin demasiada esperanza. ¿Qué otra cosa puedo hacer? Tengo más de ochenta años, soy ciego, paso la mayor parte del tiempo solo. ¿Qué otra cosa puedo hacer, excepto seguir soñando, y luego seguir escribiendo, y luego, desoyendo el consejo de mi padre, apurarme a publicar mis borradores? Ese es mi destino. Mi destino es pensar que todas las cosas, todas las experiencias, me han sido dadas para crear belleza. Sé que he fracasado, que seguiré fracasando, pero esa sigue siendo la única justificación de mi vida: seguir viviendo, seguir estando feliz, triste, perplejo, asombrado —yo vivo en un estado continuo de asombro— y luego intentar transformar esas experiencias en poesía. Y de todas esas experiencias, la más grata es la lectura… Aunque hay algo mucho mejor que leer, y es releer, adentrarse aún más en el libro, enriqueciéndolo, porque uno ya lo ha leído. Yo aconsejaría a la gente que lea poco, pero que relea mucho.

Rodrigo Fresán

Crédito: Getty Images.

Barnstone: ¿Diría usted que en sus cuentos filosóficos y en sus ensayos, usted está creando imágenes, o describiendo ideas metafísicas en sí mismas? ¿Cuál es la característica más distintiva de sus textos, el lenguaje o las nociones filosóficas?

Borges: Creo que las imágenes me interesan más que las ideas. Yo soy incapaz de pensamiento abstracto. Tanto del de los griegos como del de los hebreos. Tiendo a pensar, no a través de la razón, sino por medio de fábulas. Esa es mi divisa. Es cierto que me veo obligado a razonar de vez en cuando, y entonces lo hago muy torpemente. Pero yo prefiero soñar. Prefiero las imágenes. Kipling dijo que a un escritor le es dado escribir una fábula, pero no conocer la moraleja que se desprende de ella, ya que los lectores pueden llegar a interpretarla de un modo acaso muy diferente de la intención que el autor tuvo al escribirla. De manera que yo intento seguir leyendo, e intento seguir pensando en metáforas o en fábulas más que en argumentos. Yo siempre prefiero que mi interlocutor tenga razón.

Miembro de la audiencia: Tanto el poema épico Beowulf como muchas de las sagas islandesas nos hablan de héroes que representan conductas sociales idealizadas, al tiempo que señalan las contradicciones inherentes a esos sistemas sociales: por ejemplo, la inevitabilidad de las riñas entre clanes, la manera en que los héroes valoraban la temeridad y el coraje por encima de toda consideración práctica, etcétera. ¿Cree usted que la literatura moderna puede lograr este mismo efecto?

Borges: Debería responder que me consta que esto es así, ya que el sentido épico está presente en obras tales como César y Cleopatra de Bernard Shaw, o Los siete pilares de la sabiduría de Lawrence. Allí encontramos a la épica. Yo siempre he sentido más la poesía épica que la lírica. Creo que podemos aspirar a la épica hoy en día. ¿Por qué pensar que esa forma tan elevada del arte nos está vedada? Pero es cierto que quizá debamos buscarla de un modo diferente. Acaso la épica no pueda ser forjada hoy en día en verso, pero podemos sin duda forjarla en prosa. Acabo de dar unos pocos ejemplos pero sin duda hay muchos más. Por ejemplo, Whitman pensaba que Hojas de hierba era una obra épica, no una serie de poemas breves. Y tenía razón, ya que logró crear esa figura mitológica llamada Walt Whitman. De manera que no creo que la épica nos esté vedada. Nada nos está vedado. Está en nosotros buscarla, o, al menos, intentarlo.

«No creo que la épica nos esté vedada. Nada nos está vedado. Está en nosotros buscarla, o, al menos, intentarlo».

Barnstone: Usted habla con frecuencia sobre la muerte con cierta esperanza, con cierta expectativa. ¿No siente temor o enojo ante la muerte? ¿Podría decirnos algo acerca del tiempo, o ausencia de tiempo, en la muerte?

Borges: Cuando me siento desdichado —y me permito sentirme desdichado de vez en cuando— pienso en la muerte como la gran salvación. Después de todo, si voy a morir, ¿qué puede importarme lo que le ocurre a Jorge Luis Borges? No lo veré más. Pienso en la muerte como una gran esperanza, la esperanza de ser totalmente borrado, anulado. Cuento con ello, y sé que no habrá vida más allá, ni tampoco causa alguna para el temor ni la esperanza. Simplemente desapareceremos, y así es como debe ser. Pienso en la inmortalidad como una amenaza, pero una amenaza que nunca se cumplirá. Yo estoy seguro de no ser personalmente inmortal. Y siento que la muerte será una suerte de felicidad, ya que ¿qué mejor destino puede haber que la indiferencia y el olvido? Eso es lo que siento acerca de la muerte.




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