Entrevistas

Milo Manara, Umberto Eco y el secreto de la palabra dibujada

Milo Manara es referencia obligada de la historia del cómic. Es fácil señalar el erotismo como exponente fundamental de su obra, pero la importancia de sus creaciones va más allá de ese género y se proyecta hasta la literatura y el cine. En el medio siglo que lleva en activo, Manara ha desarrollado su interés por el poder de los relatos, tanto los propios como los que beben de la historia (desde los Borgia hasta Caravaggio), una línea de trabajo que converge con naturalidad en su última obra, la adaptación al cómic de «El nombre de la rosa» (Lumen), de Umberto Eco.

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resulta f\u00e1cil hacer un resumen de la carrera del <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/217055-milo-manara\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">dibujante italiano Milo Manara<\/a><\/span> (Luson, 1945), no tanto por una trayectoria que abarca ya m\u00e1s de cinco d\u00e9cadas como por la dif\u00edcil elecci\u00f3n entre un reguero de t\u00edtulos que conforman ya referencia obligada de la historia del c\u00f3mic. Es cierto que es f\u00e1cil caer en se\u00f1alar el erotismo como exponente fundamental de la obra de Manara, presente en su trabajo desde sus primeras historietas, pero la importancia de sus creaciones va m\u00e1s all\u00e1 de ese g\u00e9nero por la transversalidad que ha dado siempre a sus c\u00f3mics m\u00e1s reconocidos, proyect\u00e1ndose hasta la literatura y el cine a trav\u00e9s de dos figuras claves en su periplo art\u00edstico: Hugo Pratt y Federico Fellini. Primero como homenajes que permit\u00edan la reflexi\u00f3n sobre la haza\u00f1a como hace en<em> Las aventuras de Giuseppe Bergman (1979),<\/em> despu\u00e9s ya como parte de un estilo propio en el que los dos se convirtieron en guionistas para el dibujante, dando lugar a obras como <em>Verano Indio, El Gaucho<\/em> o <em>Viaje a Tulum,<\/em> que conviven con sagas er\u00f3ticas que le har\u00edan famoso, como <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/es.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/El_Clic_(historieta)\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">El Clic<\/a><\/em><\/span>. 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Recuerdo una historieta corta suya que conecta perfectamente con el misterio de contar historias, una donde un extra\u00f1o sat\u00e9lite al que llegan un terrestre y un alien\u00edgena, quienes encuentran <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/entrevistas\/borges-en-estados-unidos\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">una biblioteca infinita como la de Borges<\/a><\/span>, donde todos los relatos est\u00e1n escritos, incluyendo el de su destino, y que es casi coet\u00e1nea a la aparici\u00f3n de la novela de Eco. No s\u00e9 si la hab\u00eda le\u00eddo en ese momento, pero en ambas el poder de los libros es el gran eje argumental.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Milo Manara:<\/strong> Est\u00e1 claro que le\u00ed <em><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/literatura-contemporanea\/35999-libro-el-nombre-de-la-rosa-9788497592581\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">El nombre de la rosa<\/a><\/span><\/em> cuando sali\u00f3. Yo ya conoc\u00eda a Umberto Eco como cr\u00edtico, pero tambi\u00e9n como escritor, a trav\u00e9s del semanario <em>L'Expresso,<\/em> donde Eco ten\u00eda una secci\u00f3n fija que se llamaba <em>La Agustina de Minerva.<\/em> Por lo tanto, ya era un gran lector suyo, y luego lo he sido cada vez m\u00e1s, cuando ha empezado a escribir novelas: <em>El nombre de la Rosa, El p\u00e9ndulo de Foucault, Baudolino, La isla del d\u00eda antes, La Misteriosa llama de la reina Loana\u2026<\/em> No me he perdido ning\u00fan libro de Eco y me gusta que destaques esta coincidencia con esta historieta, que se titula <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><em><a href=\\\"https:\/\/loscomicsdemachete.blogspot.com\/2016\/09\/fone-de-milo-manara.html\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Fone<\/a><\/em><\/span> y se desarrolla en un peque\u00f1o asteroide, una especie de planeta peque\u00f1ito llamado Borges. En esa \u00e9poca no exist\u00edan ordenadores con la misma potencia de hoy en d\u00eda hoy d\u00eda, e imagin\u00e9 que un ordenador enorme consiguiera escribir palabras al azar. Y, naturalmente, seg\u00fan el azar hubiera podido escribir tambi\u00e9n la<em>\u00a0Divina comedia<\/em> o <em>El Quijote,<\/em> por ejemplo. Esto naturalmente proced\u00eda de la biblioteca de Babel de Borges, que como dec\u00eda es el nombre de este sat\u00e9lite. Y tambi\u00e9n el laberinto de Eco procede de la biblioteca de Babel, porque son salas conectadas entre s\u00ed que se van extendiendo al infinito, ocupando un espacio al que podr\u00edas entrar pero del cual nunca podr\u00edas volver a salir. Me agrada que haya sacado a relucir esta asociaci\u00f3n entre la biblioteca de Borges que sirvi\u00f3 para mi historieta y la biblioteca de la novela de Eco.<\/p><p><b>LENGUA:\u00a0Se ha dicho muchas veces que el libro de Eco es un\u00a0\u00ablibro de libros\u00bb\u00a0que reflexiona sobre el poder de la palabra, sobre el poder del relato. Pero esto ha sido tambi\u00e9n parte de la tem\u00e1tica de tus obras, como en <i>Las aventuras de Giuseppe Bergman,<\/i> que es una reflexi\u00f3n sobre el poder del relato, sobre el poder de la ficci\u00f3n.<\/b><\/p><p><strong>Milo Manara:<\/strong> S\u00ed, por supuesto. Al tratarse de un libro de libros, es decir, un libro que habla de libros que hablan de otros libros, me alegra haber hecho esta versi\u00f3n en c\u00f3mic. A diferencia de la pel\u00edcula, en este caso tambi\u00e9n es un libro, lo cual cierra el c\u00edrculo del libro que habla de libro, como una 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No debe haber sido f\u00e1cil adaptar al c\u00f3mic un libro donde, precisamente, es el poder de la palabra el que destaca, con todas esas descripciones exhaustivas, esas largas conversaciones.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Milo Manara:<\/strong> Yo empec\u00e9 con esos peque\u00f1os dibujitos que decoraban los manuscritos, que se llaman marginalias. Son fundamentales en la novela de Eco porque son la causa de la rabia de Jorge de Burgos que desencaden\u00f3 el esp\u00edritu homicida de este monje. Estos dibujos desarrollan un papel fundamental y ofrecen adem\u00e1s una imagen de la \u00e9poca totalmente distinta, es una Edad Media que est\u00e1 repleta de fantas\u00eda, que lo imagina todo porque no sabe nada. Hay mucha ignorancia de la ciencia en esa \u00e9poca, la medicina estaba todav\u00eda muy atrasada y tenemos ah\u00ed la alquimia, una astronom\u00eda que era m\u00e1s bien astrolog\u00eda\u2026 Era una ciencia bastante rara que se alimenta sobre todo de fantas\u00eda y me parece que es el periodo en el que la fantas\u00eda tuvo un papel mayor en toda la historia de la humanidad. Y esto naturalmente es maravilloso, esta necesidad de reinventar el mundo: recordemos el derrumbe del Imperio Romano y la p\u00e9rdida de las certezas del saber griego. En la Edad Media se tuvo que imaginar un mundo totalmente distinto, pues se sab\u00eda que no se sab\u00eda nada. Con la fantas\u00eda se creaba lo que faltaba, que es algo que tambi\u00e9n se hace con los dibujos. Arranqu\u00e9 precisamente de esos dibujos porque yo me siento muy c\u00f3modo en ese campo: soy un dibujante. Y esos dibujos ya se llamaban vi\u00f1etas porque a menudo se decoraban las ramas de peque\u00f1as vi\u00f1as que limitaban el dibujo. Hoy en d\u00eda siguen dando el nombre al c\u00f3mic: el c\u00f3mic est\u00e1 formado por vi\u00f1etas, cada una relacionada con la anterior y con la posterior, hay una relaci\u00f3n directa entre aquellas im\u00e1genes y el c\u00f3mic. Yo me puse en el papel del monje que decora esos textos.<\/p><p><strong>LENGUA: En una adaptaci\u00f3n donde, adem\u00e1s, hay que lidiar con la potencia de la adaptaci\u00f3n cinematogr\u00e1fica de Jean-Jacques Annaud, con un Sean Connery omnipresente. Y t\u00fa has optado por romper por completo con esa iconograf\u00eda tomando la imagen de Marlon Brando para el protagonista.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Milo Manara:<\/strong> Pues s\u00ed. Quer\u00eda declarar desde el principio que mi trabajo no tiene nada que ver con la pel\u00edcula, sino que arranca tan solo del libro. Por lo tanto, quise marcar enseguida esta diferencia haciendo, digamos, un sacrilegio. Porque Guillermo de Baskerville estaba en el imaginario de todos nosotros como Sean Connery. Efectivamente, hemos aceptado el rostro de Connery como rostro de Guillermo de Baskerville. Pero realmente yo quer\u00eda reemplazar este imaginario y reemplazarlo por otro rostro que tuviera la misma potencia, la misma fuerza, que tuviera la misma historia detr\u00e1s y que se adhiera un poco m\u00e1s a la descripci\u00f3n que Umberto Eco hace de Guillermo, por ejemplo cuando habla de la nariz aguile\u00f1a y de una mirada penetrante. Tuve esta imagen de Marlon Brando y ya no pude deshacerme de ella y, por lo tanto, lo dibuj\u00e9 como Marlon Brando. La diferencia principal entre la pel\u00edcula y la novela y tambi\u00e9n con respecto a mi versi\u00f3n es el hecho de que la novela de Eco no es una novela g\u00f3tica, mientras que la pel\u00edcula de Annaud s\u00ed que lo es. La pel\u00edcula arranca de una visi\u00f3n tardo-rom\u00e1ntica, digamos dieciochesca de la Edad Media, pero la novela de Umberto Eco no es un libro <span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/1001-edgar-allan-poe\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">como de Allan Poe<\/a><\/span>, por ejemplo. Es otra cosa totalmente diferente, no es nada g\u00f3tico. Por ejemplo, la biblioteca Eco no la represent\u00f3 con muchas escaleras peligrosas, como un laberinto que parec\u00eda como aquel castillo de Dr\u00e1cula. Para m\u00ed la inquietud de esta biblioteca radica en el concepto de Borges, es decir, estas salas que son todas iguales, cada una con dos puertas con sus mesas con armarios llenos de libros y en silencio. Pasar de una sala a la siguiente, todas iguales hasta el infinito, con esos libros que van murmurando, que dicen y que te gritan. Un libro te dice algo y el otro libro que te dice que no, es una mentira, yo te estoy diciendo la verdad. Yo ten\u00eda que imaginar todas estas voces, seguir caminando al infinito dentro de esta biblioteca no tiene nada de aterrador. Cuando Adso dice en el relato que tras lo que hab\u00eda escuchado o\u00eddo imaginaba algo aterrador y no hab\u00eda nada aterrador. Eso es lo que est\u00e1 en la novela. Yo no voy a criticar en absoluto la pel\u00edcula, de hecho a m\u00ed me gust\u00f3 mucho, pero quer\u00eda dar una lectura totalmente diferente y m\u00e1s pr\u00f3xima a la novela. Y us\u00e9 los mismos edificios en los que se inspir\u00f3 Eco para su novela, y no son esos elementos los que tienen que generar misterio, sino el propio relato a descifrar, el enigma. 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La novela gr\u00e1fica.<\/em> Cr\u00e9dito: cortes\u00eda de Lumen.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"\",\"typography_typography\":\"\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"2\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"0\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"lhjay59\",\"elType\":\"section\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_layout\":\"\",\"stretch_section\":\"\",\"layout\":\"boxed\",\"content_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"gap\":\"default\",\"height\":\"default\",\"custom_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":400},\"column_position\":\"middle\",\"content_position\":\"\",\"structure\":\"10\",\"section_background\":\"\",\"background_background\":\"\",\"background_color\":\"\",\"background_color_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":0},\"background_color_b\":\"\",\"background_color_b_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"background_gradient_type\":\"linear\",\"background_gradient_angle\":{\"unit\":\"deg\",\"size\":180},\"background_gradient_position\":\"center 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En la obra representas a Eco, que recibe los manuscritos. Eso es tambi\u00e9n otra constante de tus c\u00f3mics, donde te has representado a ti mismo y a muchos autores cl\u00e1sicos, como Pratt o Fellini. \u00bfHasta qu\u00e9 punto incorporar al autor cambia el relato?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Milo Manara:<\/strong> Hay una raz\u00f3n, puede que parezca un poco tonta pero que es importante: creo que muchos dibujantes se representan a s\u00ed mismos porque tan solo les hace falta un espejo y tienen el modelo a su disposici\u00f3n 24 horas. Lo hice con Fellini en <em>Viaje a Tulum,<\/em> fue la primera que hicimos juntos y me cost\u00f3 mucho porque \u00e9l no estaba convencido de hacer un c\u00f3mic. En las primeras p\u00e1ginas que dibuj\u00e9 \u00e9l quer\u00eda que lo dibujara como Marcello Mastroianni, que ha sido siempre su <em>alter ego.<\/em> Y yo vengo de una escuela neopl\u00e1t\u00f3nica, tengo el vicio de embellecer la realidad\u2026<\/p><p><strong>LENGUA: Otra de las constantes de tu obra ha sido la reflexi\u00f3n sobre la aventura, reflejada en sus inicios por la figura de Hugo Pratt.\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Milo Manara:<\/strong> Hugo Pratt fue el maestro de la aventura, nunca renunci\u00f3 a ella, siempre la tuvo por bandera, incluso cuando se despreciaba a finales de los 60 y principios de los 70, cuando la evasi\u00f3n se consideraba como algo negativo, algo que no estaba comprometido. Pratt siempre pas\u00f3 de este problema, me dec\u00eda que hay mucho m\u00e1s pol\u00edtica en la aventura, porque la aventura es la autodeterminaci\u00f3n del hombre. Si pensamos en nuestras ra\u00edces aut\u00e9nticas vemos que el primer relato de aventura es <em>La Odisea<\/em>. Ulises es el prototipo de la aventura, \u00e9l dice a sus marineros cuando zarpa: \u00abVuestro esp\u00edritu no es aquel de vivir como unos brutos, sino seguir la virtud y el conocimiento\u00bb. Y esta es la aventura, y esto es <em>Ulises.<\/em> Con Hugo Pratt se est\u00e1 reivindicando la necesidad de la aventura. Umberto Eco, que es la referencia del racionalismo estricto, hace una evoluci\u00f3n curiosa cuanto menos. Pero s\u00ed que hay un eje que conecta a todos: la pasi\u00f3n por la cultura popular. Todos ellos llegan siempre desde diferentes perspectivas a la cultura popular y con ella a los c\u00f3mics. Fellini representa la aventura imaginaria a trav\u00e9s de la memoria; Eco nos relata una Edad Media que tambi\u00e9n es una aventura, que no tiene nada que ver con la imagen que ten\u00edamos de la Edad Media oscura que estudiamos.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"20\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"7s2jqxy\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abHugo Pratt fue el maestro de la aventura, nunca renunci\u00f3 a ella, siempre la tuvo por bandera, incluso cuando se despreciaba a finales de los 60 y principios de los 70, cuando la evasi\u00f3n se consideraba como algo negativo, algo que no estaba comprometido. Pratt siempre pas\u00f3 de este problema, me dec\u00eda que hay mucho m\u00e1s pol\u00edtica en la aventura, porque la aventura es la autodeterminaci\u00f3n del hombre\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"i4hvs76\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>LENGUA: T\u00fa has tocado mucho el tema hist\u00f3rico, con <em>Los Borgia<\/em> junto a Alejandro Jodorowsky, con <em>Caravaggio<\/em> y ahora con <em>El nombre de la rosa; <\/em>pero de alguna manera, la novela de Eco es una especie de puerta a esas dos obras. Hay un contraste muy interesante en lo que estabas diciendo, entre la imaginaci\u00f3n desbordada del medioevo y la est\u00e9tica desbordada del renacimiento. No s\u00e9 si desde tu punto de vista tuyo, a la hora de imaginar estas obras, has buscado una cierta coherencia entre lo que ya hab\u00edas dibujado en <em>Los Borgia<\/em> y <em>Caravaggio<\/em> con lo que aqu\u00ed ten\u00edas que representar de esa \u00e9poca anterior.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Milo Manara:<\/strong> Cuando uno se sube al tren del pasado entra en una m\u00e1quina del tiempo la cual ofrece, evidentemente, la posibilidad de imaginar c\u00f3mo era la vida anterior. Naturalmente hay sorpresas, una tras otra. Creo que si ha habido un hilo conductor entre el medievo de Umberto Eco y el de Caravaggio es el Bosco. Porque el Bosco fallece en el siglo XVI pero nace en la Edad Media, ten\u00eda una imaginaci\u00f3n medieval, tambi\u00e9n una t\u00e9cnica de pintura medieval. \u00c9l representa el mundo como lo ve\u00edan los habitantes de entonces, esa mezcla que es un cruce estrecho entre fantas\u00eda y realidad. Todo el mundo estaba representado de forma casi animada porque no se sab\u00eda nada. Se imaginaban \u00c1frica poblada por unas criaturas rar\u00edsimas, con metamorfosis y cruces maravillosos. Esta es la Edad Media que relata Umberto Eco, como la que demuestran los dibujos de las marginalias o la que representa tambi\u00e9n el 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Sin embargo, m\u00e1s all\u00e1 de la fantas\u00eda medieval, hay una lectura actual en la obra de Eco.<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Milo Manara:<\/strong> Efectivamente, la lectura moderna que se puede hacer de<em> El nombre de la rosa<\/em> es porque estamos en un momento donde hay intolerancia y el humor est\u00e1 perseguido muchas veces por la intolerancia. Esa racionalidad que se pierde, como cuando Guillermo de Baskerville no consigue imponerse frente a al discurso vac\u00edo de los intolerantes. De alguna manera, posiblemente y por desgracia, <em>El nombre de rosa<\/em> es m\u00e1s actual que nunca y yo creo que hay temas que son especialmente actuales: en primer lugar la capacidad de re\u00edrse, la capacidad de mirar el mundo con cierto alejamiento y que te lleva a sonre\u00edr, efectivamente algo que estaba prohibido en el monasterio, porque la risa era la manifestaci\u00f3n del mal. Por eso esa cita de un libro de Arist\u00f3teles que dice que est\u00e1 a favor de la risa porque la risa es t\u00edpica del hombre, es algo humano, es la \u00fanica verdadera diferencia en relaci\u00f3n con los animales. Para m\u00ed es algo especialmente moderno y actual porque tengo la idea de que estamos yendo ahora hacia una sociedad desconfiada que ya no es capaz de ver las cosas con cierto alejamiento, sino que se ha considerado que la risa y por lo tanto la s\u00e1tira puede ser peligrosa, que es mejor no re\u00edrse, como lo que pas\u00f3 con <em>Charlie Hebdo<\/em> en Francia, donde mataron a uno de mis mejores amigos, Georges Wolinski. Lo que les pas\u00f3 a ellos es la demostraci\u00f3n de que en nuestra sociedad ya no somos libres, no podemos ya re\u00edrnos de cualquiera. Por lo tanto, este aspecto de la risa me parece especialmente actual y cada vez m\u00e1s actual. Otro tema es el del debate sobre la pobreza, y que se desarrollar\u00e1 sobre todo en el segundo libro pero que aqu\u00ed se adelanta de alguna forma, se anticipa. Creo que en nuestra \u00e9poca la tragedia aut\u00e9ntica es el exceso de pobreza. Hay una pobreza excesiva, sobre todo si la comparamos con la riqueza excesiva; hay una diferencia tremenda entre la riqueza y la pobreza que me parece totalmente insensata. El gran capital prefiere invertir en la renta y no en el trabajo, y el resultado es el hecho de que los ricos son cada vez m\u00e1s m\u00e1s ricos y los pobres cada vez m\u00e1s pobres Y esta es la tragedia de nuestra sociedad, que todo se reduzca al provecho a la ganancia, en un pensamiento \u00fanico que nos lleva a destruir el medio ambiente, a no tener respeto por nada y por nadie. No hace falta ser Einstein para darse cuenta de que estamos cambiando el clima y eso lleva a un camino muy feo. El tercer tema de este libro es la consideraci\u00f3n de la mujer. En este libro hay monjes que hablan muy mal de las mujeres, dicen que la mujer son veh\u00edculos del infierno que llevan a los hombres a la perdici\u00f3n, etc. Hacen la lectura del pecado de Eva. Esta es la lectura que los monjes hacen de la mujer, pero Eco lo cambia totalmente en la mitad del libro, que es justo el final de este primer volumen m\u00edo. Vemos esta epifan\u00eda, esta revelaci\u00f3n, esta aparici\u00f3n de una muchacha. Eco toma palabras del <em>Cantar de los cantares<\/em> para Adso, que dice: \u00abMe preguntaba qui\u00e9n era esta maravillosa criatura, bella como la luna, resplandeciente como el sol, terrible como un ej\u00e9rcito desplegado en batalla\u00bb. Es realmente terrible, da miedo porque arrastra una serie de significados, desde la capacidad de dar la vida a ser un 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De alguna manera, cierra una especie de ciclo con una de tus primeras obras, en la Bienal de Verona de 1969, que era<em> Il calcio alla vacca (La patada a la vaca),<\/em> un autorretrato en el que dabas una patada a una vaca que representaba el arte figurativo tradicional.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Milo Manara:<\/strong> \u00a1Ah, s\u00ed! Esto tambi\u00e9n es una patada a la sociedad moderna, a lo que est\u00e1 ocurriendo ahora en nuestra sociedad. S\u00ed, s\u00ed, cierto. Pero no solo quiero hablar de la parte moderna de este relato, tambi\u00e9n creo que es muy interesante el aspecto po\u00e9tico, el aspecto l\u00edrico y el aspecto narrativo e hist\u00f3rico, porque es un libro que tiene todos los mundos posibles y, por lo tanto, es un libro muy actual como son los grandes cl\u00e1sicos. El libro sobre los libros que hablan de libros. Es una novela de formaci\u00f3n, porque es la historia de Adso. En la edici\u00f3n italiana hay una apostilla en la que Eco dice que el primer t\u00edtulo del libro en el que hab\u00eda pensado no era <em>El nombre de la Rosa<\/em> sino <em>Adso de Melk,<\/em> indicando as\u00ed que el verdadero protagonista de esta novela de formaci\u00f3n, de maduraci\u00f3n, es el chico. Eco dec\u00eda de forma un poco provocadora que el protagonista es Watson, porque al final todos nos ponemos en el papel de Watson en las novelas de Conan Doyle.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"20\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"41at3gh\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p>\u00abEstamos yendo hacia una sociedad desconfiada que ya no es capaz de ver las cosas con cierto alejamiento, sino que se ha considerado que la risa y por lo tanto la s\u00e1tira puede ser peligrosa, que es mejor no re\u00edrse. Es lo que pas\u00f3 con <em>Charlie Hebdo<\/em> en Francia, donde mataron a uno de mis mejores amigos, Georges Wolinski\u00bb.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#000000\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"40\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"24\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Vollkorn\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"45\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"30\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"95\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"95\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"30\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"30\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"h42cosi\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p><strong>LENGUA: Para acabar, hablemos de la continuaci\u00f3n de la obra: en la segunda parte son fundamentales los debates teol\u00f3gicos, ya que las discusiones son absolutamente fascinantes, pero trasladar eso al c\u00f3mic debe ser un reto realmente dif\u00edcil... \u00bfya has pensado c\u00f3mo lo har\u00e1s?<\/strong><\/p><p><strong>Milo Manara:<\/strong> S\u00ed, bueno, espero poderlo realizarlo. La segunda parte es bastante m\u00e1s compleja pero es maravillosa porque hay tramas realmente extraordinarias. No creo que vaya a hacer un <em>spoiler<\/em> porque todo el mundo ya ha le\u00eddo la novela de Umberto Eco y sabemos c\u00f3mo termina. En la segunda parte el joven Adso tendr\u00e1 que dar cuentas con su conciencia porque a esa chica la matar\u00e1n por aquello que hicieron juntos. Con la llegada de la inquisici\u00f3n se derrumban los monjes, que confiesan sus culpas. Todo adquiere un sentido contrario, diab\u00f3lico y oscuro, y terminar\u00e1 como una tragedia. Esa es la diferencia entre la tragedia y la comedia, que la comedia siempre tiene un final feliz. Y esto es una tragedia y, por lo tanto, terminar\u00e1 mal.<\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"50\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"5uv8ah0\",\"elType\":\"widget\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_editor\":\"\",\"editor\":\"<p class=\\\"MsoNormal\\\"><strong>OTROS\u00a0CONTENIDOS DE INTER\u00c9S:<\/strong><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/comic\/una-historia-persa-del-bien-y-del-mal-marjane-satrapi-mujer-vida-libertad\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Una historia persa del bien y del mal (seg\u00fan Marjane Satrapi)<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/comic\/hayao-miyazaki-el-viaje-de-shuna-oriol-estrada\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">El viaje de Miyazaki: sindicalismo, manga, animaci\u00f3n, ecologismo y pol\u00edtica<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><span style=\\\"text-decoration: underline;\\\"><a href=\\\"https:\/\/www.penguinlibros.com\/es\/revista-lengua\/comic\/keum-suk-gendry-kim-la-espera-hierba\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\" rel=\\\"noopener\\\">Keum Suk Gendry-Kim: cuando el horror llama a la puerta<\/a><\/span><\/p><p><\/p>\",\"section_style\":\"\",\"align\":\"\",\"align_tablet\":\"\",\"align_mobile\":\"\",\"text_color\":\"#1a1a1a\",\"typography_typography\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_size\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"18\"},\"typography_font_size_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_size_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_font_family\":\"custom\",\"typography_font_family_custom\":\"Fort-Book\",\"typography_font_weight\":\"\",\"typography_text_transform\":\"\",\"typography_font_style\":\"\",\"typography_line_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"27\"},\"typography_line_height_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_line_height_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"em\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"typography_letter_spacing_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"_section_style\":\"\",\"_margin\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"0\",\"right\":\"0\",\"bottom\":\"58\",\"left\":\"0\",\"isLinked\":false},\"_margin_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_margin_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"20\",\"right\":\"20\",\"bottom\":\"20\",\"left\":\"20\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_tablet\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_padding_mobile\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"\",\"right\":\"\",\"bottom\":\"\",\"left\":\"\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_animation\":\"\",\"animation_duration\":\"\",\"_css_classes\":\"\",\"_section_background\":\"\",\"_background_background\":\"\",\"_background_color\":\"\",\"_background_image\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_background_position\":\"\",\"_background_attachment\":\"\",\"_background_repeat\":\"\",\"_background_size\":\"\",\"_background_video_link\":\"\",\"_background_video_fallback\":{\"url\":\"\",\"id\":\"\"},\"_border_border\":\"solid\",\"_border_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"1\",\"right\":\"1\",\"bottom\":\"1\",\"left\":\"1\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_border_color\":\"\",\"_border_radius\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"top\":\"20\",\"right\":\"20\",\"bottom\":\"20\",\"left\":\"20\",\"isLinked\":true},\"_box_shadow_box_shadow_type\":\"\",\"_box_shadow_box_shadow\":{\"horizontal\":0,\"vertical\":0,\"blur\":10,\"spread\":0,\"inset\":\"\",\"color\":\"rgba(0,0,0,0.5)\"},\"_section_responsive\":\"\",\"responsive_description\":\"\",\"hide_desktop\":\"\",\"hide_tablet\":\"\",\"hide_mobile\":\"\"},\"defaultEditSettings\":[],\"widgetType\":\"text-editor\",\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}}],\"editSettings\":{}},{\"id\":\"39qicr8\",\"elType\":\"section\",\"isInner\":false,\"settings\":{\"section_layout\":\"\",\"stretch_section\":\"section-stretched\",\"layout\":\"full_width\",\"content_width\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":\"\"},\"gap\":\"default\",\"height\":\"default\",\"custom_height\":{\"unit\":\"px\",\"size\":400},\"column_position\":\"middle\",\"content_position\":\"\",\"structure\":\"10\",\"section_background\":\"\",\"background_background\":\"\",\"background_color\":\"\",\"background_color_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":0},\"background_color_b\":\"\",\"background_color_b_stop\":{\"unit\":\"%\",\"size\":100},\"background_gradient_type\":\"linear\",\"background_gradient_angle\":{\"unit\":\"deg\",\"size\":180},\"background_gradient_position\":\"center 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10 minutos

Por  Álvaro Pons

Milo Manara en enero de 2019 durante la 46ª edición del Festival Internacional del Cómic de Angulema. Crédito: Getty Images.

Milo Manara en enero de 2019 durante la 46ª edición del Festival Internacional del Cómic de Angulema. Crédito: Getty Images.

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No resulta fácil hacer un resumen de la carrera del dibujante italiano Milo Manara (Luson, 1945), no tanto por una trayectoria que abarca ya más de cinco décadas como por la difícil elección entre un reguero de títulos que conforman ya referencia obligada de la historia del cómic. Es cierto que es fácil caer en señalar el erotismo como exponente fundamental de la obra de Manara, presente en su trabajo desde sus primeras historietas, pero la importancia de sus creaciones va más allá de ese género por la transversalidad que ha dado siempre a sus cómics más reconocidos, proyectándose hasta la literatura y el cine a través de dos figuras claves en su periplo artístico: Hugo Pratt y Federico Fellini. Primero como homenajes que permitían la reflexión sobre la hazaña como hace en Las aventuras de Giuseppe Bergman (1979), después ya como parte de un estilo propio en el que los dos se convirtieron en guionistas para el dibujante, dando lugar a obras como Verano Indio, El Gaucho o Viaje a Tulum, que conviven con sagas eróticas que le harían famoso, como El Clic. En las colaboraciones con Pratt y Fellini, Manara desarrolla su interés por el poder de los relatos, primero desde las propias ficciones, pero después también desde la lectura de la historia, como las obras históricas que ha hecho sobre los Borgia -junto a Alejandro Jodorowsky- o la adaptación de la vida de Caravaggio. Una línea que converge con naturalidad en su última obra, la adaptación al cómic de El nombre de la rosa, de Umberto Eco.

LENGUA: Recuerdo una historieta corta suya que conecta perfectamente con el misterio de contar historias, una donde un extraño satélite al que llegan un terrestre y un alienígena, quienes encuentran una biblioteca infinita como la de Borges, donde todos los relatos están escritos, incluyendo el de su destino, y que es casi coetánea a la aparición de la novela de Eco. No sé si la había leído en ese momento, pero en ambas el poder de los libros es el gran eje argumental. 

Milo Manara: Está claro que leí El nombre de la rosa cuando salió. Yo ya conocía a Umberto Eco como crítico, pero también como escritor, a través del semanario L'Expresso, donde Eco tenía una sección fija que se llamaba La Agustina de Minerva. Por lo tanto, ya era un gran lector suyo, y luego lo he sido cada vez más, cuando ha empezado a escribir novelas: El nombre de la Rosa, El péndulo de Foucault, Baudolino, La isla del día antes, La Misteriosa llama de la reina Loana… No me he perdido ningún libro de Eco y me gusta que destaques esta coincidencia con esta historieta, que se titula Fone y se desarrolla en un pequeño asteroide, una especie de planeta pequeñito llamado Borges. En esa época no existían ordenadores con la misma potencia de hoy en día hoy día, e imaginé que un ordenador enorme consiguiera escribir palabras al azar. Y, naturalmente, según el azar hubiera podido escribir también la Divina comedia o El Quijote, por ejemplo. Esto naturalmente procedía de la biblioteca de Babel de Borges, que como decía es el nombre de este satélite. Y también el laberinto de Eco procede de la biblioteca de Babel, porque son salas conectadas entre sí que se van extendiendo al infinito, ocupando un espacio al que podrías entrar pero del cual nunca podrías volver a salir. Me agrada que haya sacado a relucir esta asociación entre la biblioteca de Borges que sirvió para mi historieta y la biblioteca de la novela de Eco.

LENGUA: Se ha dicho muchas veces que el libro de Eco es un «libro de libros» que reflexiona sobre el poder de la palabra, sobre el poder del relato. Pero esto ha sido también parte de la temática de tus obras, como en Las aventuras de Giuseppe Bergman, que es una reflexión sobre el poder del relato, sobre el poder de la ficción.

Milo Manara: Sí, por supuesto. Al tratarse de un libro de libros, es decir, un libro que habla de libros que hablan de otros libros, me alegra haber hecho esta versión en cómic. A diferencia de la película, en este caso también es un libro, lo cual cierra el círculo del libro que habla de libro, como una matrioska.

Dos genios y una obra maestra

LENGUA: No debe haber sido fácil adaptar al cómic un libro donde, precisamente, es el poder de la palabra el que destaca, con todas esas descripciones exhaustivas, esas largas conversaciones. 

Milo Manara: Yo empecé con esos pequeños dibujitos que decoraban los manuscritos, que se llaman marginalias. Son fundamentales en la novela de Eco porque son la causa de la rabia de Jorge de Burgos que desencadenó el espíritu homicida de este monje. Estos dibujos desarrollan un papel fundamental y ofrecen además una imagen de la época totalmente distinta, es una Edad Media que está repleta de fantasía, que lo imagina todo porque no sabe nada. Hay mucha ignorancia de la ciencia en esa época, la medicina estaba todavía muy atrasada y tenemos ahí la alquimia, una astronomía que era más bien astrología… Era una ciencia bastante rara que se alimenta sobre todo de fantasía y me parece que es el periodo en el que la fantasía tuvo un papel mayor en toda la historia de la humanidad. Y esto naturalmente es maravilloso, esta necesidad de reinventar el mundo: recordemos el derrumbe del Imperio Romano y la pérdida de las certezas del saber griego. En la Edad Media se tuvo que imaginar un mundo totalmente distinto, pues se sabía que no se sabía nada. Con la fantasía se creaba lo que faltaba, que es algo que también se hace con los dibujos. Arranqué precisamente de esos dibujos porque yo me siento muy cómodo en ese campo: soy un dibujante. Y esos dibujos ya se llamaban viñetas porque a menudo se decoraban las ramas de pequeñas viñas que limitaban el dibujo. Hoy en día siguen dando el nombre al cómic: el cómic está formado por viñetas, cada una relacionada con la anterior y con la posterior, hay una relación directa entre aquellas imágenes y el cómic. Yo me puse en el papel del monje que decora esos textos.

LENGUA: En una adaptación donde, además, hay que lidiar con la potencia de la adaptación cinematográfica de Jean-Jacques Annaud, con un Sean Connery omnipresente. Y tú has optado por romper por completo con esa iconografía tomando la imagen de Marlon Brando para el protagonista.

Milo Manara: Pues sí. Quería declarar desde el principio que mi trabajo no tiene nada que ver con la película, sino que arranca tan solo del libro. Por lo tanto, quise marcar enseguida esta diferencia haciendo, digamos, un sacrilegio. Porque Guillermo de Baskerville estaba en el imaginario de todos nosotros como Sean Connery. Efectivamente, hemos aceptado el rostro de Connery como rostro de Guillermo de Baskerville. Pero realmente yo quería reemplazar este imaginario y reemplazarlo por otro rostro que tuviera la misma potencia, la misma fuerza, que tuviera la misma historia detrás y que se adhiera un poco más a la descripción que Umberto Eco hace de Guillermo, por ejemplo cuando habla de la nariz aguileña y de una mirada penetrante. Tuve esta imagen de Marlon Brando y ya no pude deshacerme de ella y, por lo tanto, lo dibujé como Marlon Brando. La diferencia principal entre la película y la novela y también con respecto a mi versión es el hecho de que la novela de Eco no es una novela gótica, mientras que la película de Annaud sí que lo es. La película arranca de una visión tardo-romántica, digamos dieciochesca de la Edad Media, pero la novela de Umberto Eco no es un libro como de Allan Poe, por ejemplo. Es otra cosa totalmente diferente, no es nada gótico. Por ejemplo, la biblioteca Eco no la representó con muchas escaleras peligrosas, como un laberinto que parecía como aquel castillo de Drácula. Para mí la inquietud de esta biblioteca radica en el concepto de Borges, es decir, estas salas que son todas iguales, cada una con dos puertas con sus mesas con armarios llenos de libros y en silencio. Pasar de una sala a la siguiente, todas iguales hasta el infinito, con esos libros que van murmurando, que dicen y que te gritan. Un libro te dice algo y el otro libro que te dice que no, es una mentira, yo te estoy diciendo la verdad. Yo tenía que imaginar todas estas voces, seguir caminando al infinito dentro de esta biblioteca no tiene nada de aterrador. Cuando Adso dice en el relato que tras lo que había escuchado oído imaginaba algo aterrador y no había nada aterrador. Eso es lo que está en la novela. Yo no voy a criticar en absoluto la película, de hecho a mí me gustó mucho, pero quería dar una lectura totalmente diferente y más próxima a la novela. Y usé los mismos edificios en los que se inspiró Eco para su novela, y no son esos elementos los que tienen que generar misterio, sino el propio relato a descifrar, el enigma. El enigma es lo que nos tiene que generar ansiedad, es un enigma surreal, metafísico, que nos lleva a hablar de Buñuel o Dalí antes que de Drácula.

Páginas interiores de El nombre de la rosa. La novela gráfica. Crédito: cortesía de Lumen.

Páginas interiores de El nombre de la rosa. La novela gráfica. Crédito: cortesía de Lumen.

LENGUA: En la obra representas a Eco, que recibe los manuscritos. Eso es también otra constante de tus cómics, donde te has representado a ti mismo y a muchos autores clásicos, como Pratt o Fellini. ¿Hasta qué punto incorporar al autor cambia el relato?

Milo Manara: Hay una razón, puede que parezca un poco tonta pero que es importante: creo que muchos dibujantes se representan a sí mismos porque tan solo les hace falta un espejo y tienen el modelo a su disposición 24 horas. Lo hice con Fellini en Viaje a Tulum, fue la primera que hicimos juntos y me costó mucho porque él no estaba convencido de hacer un cómic. En las primeras páginas que dibujé él quería que lo dibujara como Marcello Mastroianni, que ha sido siempre su alter ego. Y yo vengo de una escuela neoplátónica, tengo el vicio de embellecer la realidad…

LENGUA: Otra de las constantes de tu obra ha sido la reflexión sobre la aventura, reflejada en sus inicios por la figura de Hugo Pratt.  

Milo Manara: Hugo Pratt fue el maestro de la aventura, nunca renunció a ella, siempre la tuvo por bandera, incluso cuando se despreciaba a finales de los 60 y principios de los 70, cuando la evasión se consideraba como algo negativo, algo que no estaba comprometido. Pratt siempre pasó de este problema, me decía que hay mucho más política en la aventura, porque la aventura es la autodeterminación del hombre. Si pensamos en nuestras raíces auténticas vemos que el primer relato de aventura es La Odisea. Ulises es el prototipo de la aventura, él dice a sus marineros cuando zarpa: «Vuestro espíritu no es aquel de vivir como unos brutos, sino seguir la virtud y el conocimiento». Y esta es la aventura, y esto es Ulises. Con Hugo Pratt se está reivindicando la necesidad de la aventura. Umberto Eco, que es la referencia del racionalismo estricto, hace una evolución curiosa cuanto menos. Pero sí que hay un eje que conecta a todos: la pasión por la cultura popular. Todos ellos llegan siempre desde diferentes perspectivas a la cultura popular y con ella a los cómics. Fellini representa la aventura imaginaria a través de la memoria; Eco nos relata una Edad Media que también es una aventura, que no tiene nada que ver con la imagen que teníamos de la Edad Media oscura que estudiamos.

«Hugo Pratt fue el maestro de la aventura, nunca renunció a ella, siempre la tuvo por bandera, incluso cuando se despreciaba a finales de los 60 y principios de los 70, cuando la evasión se consideraba como algo negativo, algo que no estaba comprometido. Pratt siempre pasó de este problema, me decía que hay mucho más política en la aventura, porque la aventura es la autodeterminación del hombre».

LENGUA: Tú has tocado mucho el tema histórico, con Los Borgia junto a Alejandro Jodorowsky, con Caravaggio y ahora con El nombre de la rosa; pero de alguna manera, la novela de Eco es una especie de puerta a esas dos obras. Hay un contraste muy interesante en lo que estabas diciendo, entre la imaginación desbordada del medioevo y la estética desbordada del renacimiento. No sé si desde tu punto de vista tuyo, a la hora de imaginar estas obras, has buscado una cierta coherencia entre lo que ya habías dibujado en Los Borgia y Caravaggio con lo que aquí tenías que representar de esa época anterior.

Milo Manara: Cuando uno se sube al tren del pasado entra en una máquina del tiempo la cual ofrece, evidentemente, la posibilidad de imaginar cómo era la vida anterior. Naturalmente hay sorpresas, una tras otra. Creo que si ha habido un hilo conductor entre el medievo de Umberto Eco y el de Caravaggio es el Bosco. Porque el Bosco fallece en el siglo XVI pero nace en la Edad Media, tenía una imaginación medieval, también una técnica de pintura medieval. Él representa el mundo como lo veían los habitantes de entonces, esa mezcla que es un cruce estrecho entre fantasía y realidad. Todo el mundo estaba representado de forma casi animada porque no se sabía nada. Se imaginaban África poblada por unas criaturas rarísimas, con metamorfosis y cruces maravillosos. Esta es la Edad Media que relata Umberto Eco, como la que demuestran los dibujos de las marginalias o la que representa también el Bosco.

Páginas interiores de El nombre de la rosa. La novela gráfica. Crédito: cortesía de Lumen.

Páginas interiores de El nombre de la rosa. La novela gráfica. Crédito: cortesía de Lumen.

LENGUA: Sin embargo, más allá de la fantasía medieval, hay una lectura actual en la obra de Eco.

Milo Manara: Efectivamente, la lectura moderna que se puede hacer de El nombre de la rosa es porque estamos en un momento donde hay intolerancia y el humor está perseguido muchas veces por la intolerancia. Esa racionalidad que se pierde, como cuando Guillermo de Baskerville no consigue imponerse frente a al discurso vacío de los intolerantes. De alguna manera, posiblemente y por desgracia, El nombre de rosa es más actual que nunca y yo creo que hay temas que son especialmente actuales: en primer lugar la capacidad de reírse, la capacidad de mirar el mundo con cierto alejamiento y que te lleva a sonreír, efectivamente algo que estaba prohibido en el monasterio, porque la risa era la manifestación del mal. Por eso esa cita de un libro de Aristóteles que dice que está a favor de la risa porque la risa es típica del hombre, es algo humano, es la única verdadera diferencia en relación con los animales. Para mí es algo especialmente moderno y actual porque tengo la idea de que estamos yendo ahora hacia una sociedad desconfiada que ya no es capaz de ver las cosas con cierto alejamiento, sino que se ha considerado que la risa y por lo tanto la sátira puede ser peligrosa, que es mejor no reírse, como lo que pasó con Charlie Hebdo en Francia, donde mataron a uno de mis mejores amigos, Georges Wolinski. Lo que les pasó a ellos es la demostración de que en nuestra sociedad ya no somos libres, no podemos ya reírnos de cualquiera. Por lo tanto, este aspecto de la risa me parece especialmente actual y cada vez más actual. Otro tema es el del debate sobre la pobreza, y que se desarrollará sobre todo en el segundo libro pero que aquí se adelanta de alguna forma, se anticipa. Creo que en nuestra época la tragedia auténtica es el exceso de pobreza. Hay una pobreza excesiva, sobre todo si la comparamos con la riqueza excesiva; hay una diferencia tremenda entre la riqueza y la pobreza que me parece totalmente insensata. El gran capital prefiere invertir en la renta y no en el trabajo, y el resultado es el hecho de que los ricos son cada vez más más ricos y los pobres cada vez más pobres Y esta es la tragedia de nuestra sociedad, que todo se reduzca al provecho a la ganancia, en un pensamiento único que nos lleva a destruir el medio ambiente, a no tener respeto por nada y por nadie. No hace falta ser Einstein para darse cuenta de que estamos cambiando el clima y eso lleva a un camino muy feo. El tercer tema de este libro es la consideración de la mujer. En este libro hay monjes que hablan muy mal de las mujeres, dicen que la mujer son vehículos del infierno que llevan a los hombres a la perdición, etc. Hacen la lectura del pecado de Eva. Esta es la lectura que los monjes hacen de la mujer, pero Eco lo cambia totalmente en la mitad del libro, que es justo el final de este primer volumen mío. Vemos esta epifanía, esta revelación, esta aparición de una muchacha. Eco toma palabras del Cantar de los cantares para Adso, que dice: «Me preguntaba quién era esta maravillosa criatura, bella como la luna, resplandeciente como el sol, terrible como un ejército desplegado en batalla». Es realmente terrible, da miedo porque arrastra una serie de significados, desde la capacidad de dar la vida a ser un ejército.

Madrid, octubre de 2010. Milo Manara presenta varios de sus diseños en el showroom Clorofila Digital. Crédito: Getty Images.

Madrid, octubre de 2010. Milo Manara presenta varios de sus diseños en el showroom Clorofila Digital. Crédito: Getty Images.

LENGUA: De alguna manera, cierra una especie de ciclo con una de tus primeras obras, en la Bienal de Verona de 1969, que era Il calcio alla vacca (La patada a la vaca), un autorretrato en el que dabas una patada a una vaca que representaba el arte figurativo tradicional. 

Milo Manara: ¡Ah, sí! Esto también es una patada a la sociedad moderna, a lo que está ocurriendo ahora en nuestra sociedad. Sí, sí, cierto. Pero no solo quiero hablar de la parte moderna de este relato, también creo que es muy interesante el aspecto poético, el aspecto lírico y el aspecto narrativo e histórico, porque es un libro que tiene todos los mundos posibles y, por lo tanto, es un libro muy actual como son los grandes clásicos. El libro sobre los libros que hablan de libros. Es una novela de formación, porque es la historia de Adso. En la edición italiana hay una apostilla en la que Eco dice que el primer título del libro en el que había pensado no era El nombre de la Rosa sino Adso de Melk, indicando así que el verdadero protagonista de esta novela de formación, de maduración, es el chico. Eco decía de forma un poco provocadora que el protagonista es Watson, porque al final todos nos ponemos en el papel de Watson en las novelas de Conan Doyle.

«Estamos yendo hacia una sociedad desconfiada que ya no es capaz de ver las cosas con cierto alejamiento, sino que se ha considerado que la risa y por lo tanto la sátira puede ser peligrosa, que es mejor no reírse. Es lo que pasó con Charlie Hebdo en Francia, donde mataron a uno de mis mejores amigos, Georges Wolinski».

LENGUA: Para acabar, hablemos de la continuación de la obra: en la segunda parte son fundamentales los debates teológicos, ya que las discusiones son absolutamente fascinantes, pero trasladar eso al cómic debe ser un reto realmente difícil... ¿ya has pensado cómo lo harás?

Milo Manara: Sí, bueno, espero poderlo realizarlo. La segunda parte es bastante más compleja pero es maravillosa porque hay tramas realmente extraordinarias. No creo que vaya a hacer un spoiler porque todo el mundo ya ha leído la novela de Umberto Eco y sabemos cómo termina. En la segunda parte el joven Adso tendrá que dar cuentas con su conciencia porque a esa chica la matarán por aquello que hicieron juntos. Con la llegada de la inquisición se derrumban los monjes, que confiesan sus culpas. Todo adquiere un sentido contrario, diabólico y oscuro, y terminará como una tragedia. Esa es la diferencia entre la tragedia y la comedia, que la comedia siempre tiene un final feliz. Y esto es una tragedia y, por lo tanto, terminará mal.

OTROS CONTENIDOS DE INTERÉS:

Una historia persa del bien y del mal (según Marjane Satrapi)

El viaje de Miyazaki: sindicalismo, manga, animación, ecologismo y política

Keum Suk Gendry-Kim: cuando el horror llama a la puerta

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